0:00 This could be the last time I speak
0:03 about myself, my work, because there's a
0:05 chance that I might not make it off the
0:07 operating table this month. And a
0:09 journalist who has very bad blood
0:11 towards me has been trying to publish a
0:14 story on me for more than 2 years now,
0:16 and it will come out in the next month
0:18 or two. And I didn't want that to be the
0:19 last word on my life.
0:21 >> What do you want the last word of your
0:23 life to be?
0:24 >> I'm here to communicate about the
0:25 possibility of a major forgotten episode
0:28 in Human Story. I'm talking about a lost
0:30 civilization.
0:32 >> So, most people think civilization
0:34 started 6,000 years ago.
0:35 >> Yes.
0:36 >> But you believe there's strong evidence
0:37 that there could have been a previous
0:38 civilization
0:39 >> 20,000 years ago. And I'm going to
0:41 present the evidence for that here,
0:42 Stephen. And it suggests a golden age
0:45 where there was no violence, no cruelty,
0:47 where great healers and sages were at
0:49 work. They're extremely sophisticated.
0:51 However, if you follow the myths
0:53 further, as I've done, you find
0:54 something odd happens. We find that they
0:56 stepped away from the original purity
0:58 and become a culture that begins to
1:00 impose its power on others around the
1:02 world. And then sewn into those myths is
1:04 scientific information which record a
1:06 gigantic cataclysm all but wiping out
1:09 the human race.
1:10 >> If what you're saying is true, what does
1:12 that mean for our lives? I guess also
1:14 our future.
1:15 >> Well, there's always this feeling in the
1:16 myth that we brought this upon
1:18 ourselves. And when I look at our
1:19 civilization today, I see a civilization
1:22 that ticks all the mythological boxes
1:24 for the next lost civilization. And that
1:26 we are most likely to be the cause of
1:28 that cataclysm ourselves. Unless we wake
1:31 up.
1:33 Graeme Hancock, what will you care about
1:35 on your last day?
1:39 >> Most of all,
1:44 this is super interesting to me. My team
1:46 given me this report to show me how many
1:47 of you that watch this show subscribe.
1:49 And some of you have told us according
1:50 to this that you are unsubscribed from
1:52 the channel randomly. So favor to ask
1:54 all of you, please could you check right
1:56 now if you've hit the subscribe button
1:57 if you are a regular viewer of this show
1:59 and you like what we do here. We're
2:00 approaching quite a significant landmark
2:02 on this show in terms of a subscriber
2:03 number. So, if there was one simple free
2:06 thing that you could do to help us, my
2:08 team, everyone here, to keep this show
2:10 free, to keep it improving year over
2:12 year and week over week, it is just to
2:14 hit that subscribe button and to double
2:15 check if you've hit it. Only thing I'll
2:16 ever ask of you, do we have a deal? If
2:18 you do it, I'll tell you what I'll do.
2:20 I'll make sure every single week, every
2:22 single month, we fight harder and harder
2:24 and harder and harder to bring you the
2:25 guests and conversations that you want
2:26 to hear. I've stayed true to that
2:28 promise since the very beginning of the
2:29 D of Sio, and I will not let you down.
2:32 Please help us. Really appreciate it.
2:33 Let's get on with the show.
2:38 >> Bram Hancock, I guess the first question
2:41 I wanted to ask you is what is it you've
2:43 committed the last more than 30 years of
2:45 your life to understanding
2:48 >> what it is is a a puzzle.
2:51 I'm puzzled by aspects of the human
2:54 past. There could be, and I think
2:58 there's a lot to suggest there was, a
3:00 major forgotten episode in the human
3:02 story. That's why I refer to us as a
3:05 species with amnesia. When I use that
3:07 phrase, I need to give credit to Emanuel
3:10 Velikovski who wrote a book called
3:12 mankind in Amnesia. I think we are a
3:14 species with amnesia. I think we have
3:16 forgotten something very important in
3:18 our own past. And when I turn to the
3:22 experts, I find much of what they say
3:24 very interesting and very useful. but
3:26 some of what they say extremely
3:28 unsatisfactory and and not responding to
3:31 the problems that that I have in the
3:33 past. And that's led me to to take my
3:36 own approach to the past to look at that
3:38 and and to offer uh readers because I'm
3:41 mainly an author occasionally make TV
3:43 shows to offer them an alternative point
3:45 of view which is rational and and and
3:48 solidly based but which is contrary to
3:52 key aspects of the mainstream narrative.
3:55 We only have decipherable written
3:57 scripts from the last 5 and a half
4:00 thousand years maximum. Before that, we
4:02 don't have any any writing that we can
4:05 at any rate read. Go back 10, 12, 15,
4:08 20,000 years. All you can base it on
4:11 from an archaeological point of view is
4:13 what they can dig out of the ground. And
4:16 I think what they're missing, the
4:18 ancients did leave us memories of what
4:20 they went through. We have myths and
4:24 traditions and scriptures from all
4:27 around the world which record a gigantic
4:30 cataclysm affecting the human race and
4:34 all but wiping out the human race.
4:35 Everybody knows the story of the flood
4:37 of Noah. Of course, the flood of Noah is
4:39 just an one example of hundreds like
4:42 that of stories from around the world.
4:44 Uh archaeologists pour scorn on Plato's
4:48 story of Atlantis. Uh but Atlantis is
4:51 another of those stories that remembers
4:52 a global flood that wiped out a former
4:55 era of existence, leaving only a few
4:57 survivors. And the archaeological
4:59 response to them is there was a local
5:02 river flood. They exaggerated it. It was
5:05 a big deal for them. So they said it
5:07 happened to the whole world. And I'm
5:08 sick of archaeologists saying that. This
5:10 is the memory banks of our species. This
5:13 is the record, the only record we have
5:15 of a period before 6,000 years ago. And
5:18 we shouldn't despise it and scorn it as
5:20 primitive superstition. We should say,
5:22 what can we find in here that we can
5:25 coordinate with scientific facts that
5:26 we're aware of? Let's see if there's
5:28 something to this rather than just
5:30 dismissing it. Many of these myths
5:33 contain imagery and a series of numbers.
5:37 A very important academic study
5:39 published in the 1960s a book called
5:41 Hamlet's Mill by Giorgio de Santilana,
5:44 professor of the history of science at
5:46 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
5:48 and Hera Vondes, professor of history of
5:50 science. This is not me speaking. This
5:52 is major major historians of science in
5:54 the 1960s. They found encoded in those
5:57 myths numbers and imagery that could
5:59 only relate to one thing and that's an
6:01 obscure astronomical phenomenon called
6:03 the precession of the equinoxes. I'm not
6:05 going to go into the technical details,
6:07 but to observe it and to record it and
6:09 to predict it, to predict its effects in
6:11 the future involves very precise
6:13 astronomical observations maintained
6:15 over a very long period of time,
6:17 hundreds and hundreds of years at least.
6:19 So here we have myths of a global
6:21 cataclysm. There is just so much else.
6:23 There are ancient maps that show the
6:24 world as it looked during the ice age,
6:26 again dismissed as just total
6:28 coincidence and not significant by
6:29 archaeology. I feel that archaeology has
6:32 failed miserably in providing a
6:34 nurturing satisfying answer to the
6:36 questions we all have.
6:38 >> So when you say global cataclysm
6:41 >> what does that mean? Means that some
6:43 something hit the planet there was we
6:45 were wiped out.
6:46 >> Yeah. There there there are a number of
6:48 options and again I need to stress this
6:50 because because there's so much
6:52 propaganda in this business I'll be
6:53 immediately accused of lunatic fringe.
6:56 The solid science that's been done on
6:58 this uh is twofold. One aspect of it,
7:02 the one that I think I find most
7:04 persuasive is called the younger drius
7:05 impact hypothesis. And this is a
7:07 mainstream hypothesis, but it is
7:10 severely criticized within academia. The
7:13 hypothesis is that about 20,000 years
7:16 ago, a very large comet came in from
7:21 deep space and went into orbit around
7:23 the sun. This would be a comet of a
7:25 diameter of 100 kilometers, maybe 200.
7:29 Comes in, gets captured by the sun's
7:31 gravity, goes into an orbit. That orbit
7:33 crosses the orbit of the Earth. While
7:36 you're dealing with one large object,
7:38 the chances of getting hit are extremely
7:41 low. It would be very bad if you did,
7:43 but very low. Trouble is, nobody
7:47 disputes this. Once comets are caught by
7:49 the gravitational field of a very large
7:51 planet or of a sun, they start to break
7:53 up into multiple parts. And this is what
7:55 happened to the younger dryass comet.
7:57 Instead of being a single bullet, it
7:59 became a shotgun blast. It became
8:01 thousands and thousands of objects of
8:03 which we've cataloged quite a lot.
8:05 Numbers of them, comet Enki is the best
8:07 known bit of that former comet. Many of
8:10 the academics who look at this think
8:12 that comet Enki which is about six
8:14 kilometers in diameter and which does
8:15 cross the orbit of the earth they think
8:17 that that was the source comet but
8:20 whereas the other team are saying no
8:21 that's a bit of the source comet there
8:24 were many other bits as well and 12,800
8:26 years ago 12,860
8:28 approximately the earth went into a
8:30 storm of these fragments none of them
8:34 big enough to compare with the object
8:36 that wiped out the dinosaurs 65 million
8:38 years ago but all over the world. The
8:40 earth is turning. This stuff comes in.
8:42 They found it in the west coast of North
8:44 America. They found it in Belgium. And
8:47 they found it as far east as Syria. So,
8:49 it's like the earth turns and this stuff
8:51 is just coming in. Most of it is blowing
8:54 up in the air. It isn't even hitting the
8:55 ground. But an air burst from an object
8:58 that might be 100 meters in diameter is
9:00 equivalent to a very substantial nuclear
9:01 blast. So, their argument is the Earth
9:04 was hit by a comet storm. And this they
9:08 then argue, and I think they're right,
9:10 uh, explains what happened then because
9:12 12,800 years ago, we were still in the
9:15 ice age. Uh, but the earth was coming
9:18 out of the ice age. In fact, for about
9:20 a,00 maybe 2,000 years before that, the
9:23 earth had been getting warmer, getting
9:25 quite nice. And you would normally
9:27 expect that to continue. But then
9:29 suddenly, 12,800
9:31 years ago, give or take, 60 years,
9:34 there's a huge interruption. There's a
9:36 radical change. The earth instead of
9:39 warming, it suddenly goes back into a
9:41 massive deep freeze. And this is the
9:43 time when all the famous big animals of
9:47 the ice age, the megapora are wiped out.
9:49 The the woolly mammoths, the mastadons,
9:51 the giant sloths, these things like 14
9:54 ft tall, you know, they're all they're
9:55 all wiped out in that window around
9:57 about 12,800 years ago. And most
10:00 important of all, there's a very
10:02 mysterious sea level rise that occurs
10:04 then. This you would not expect when the
10:06 earth is entering a cold phase. Normally
10:09 when earth enters a cold phase, ice
10:11 accumulates on the existing ice caps. It
10:14 doesn't melt and go into the sea. So the
10:17 next thing is how do we explain this
10:19 sudden rise in sea levels at the
10:20 beginning of younger drives? It
10:22 shouldn't have happened. The comet
10:24 theory explains it perfectly. the the
10:26 the mass, the impact, the heat, the air
10:28 bursts, that would have been enough to
10:30 send the ice sheets into meltdown and to
10:33 cause this pulse of melt water. Then the
10:35 freeze sets in, you have about 1,200
10:38 years of freezing, desperately cold
10:41 conditions. And then again, 11,600 years
10:44 ago, womph, it suddenly warms up. I
10:46 mean, these are radical climate changes.
10:48 They're beyond anything that's happening
10:49 now. And uh I I think explanations are
10:52 needed for them. And because 12,800
10:55 years ago may sound a long time ago, but
10:57 it's really yesterday in the human
10:59 story. Uh, so something very big
11:02 happened to the Earth and happened to
11:04 our ancestors 12,800 years ago. If it
11:07 wasn't a comet, another theory that's
11:09 been put forward is a radical change in
11:11 solar activity. This might have been
11:12 involved with it as well. I don't find
11:15 that as persuasive as the younger dus
11:17 impact hypothesis. And you know maybe
11:19 some other explanation will come up but
11:20 what nobody disputes is that the younger
11:22 dus was a catastrophe. Uh it was global
11:26 uh and and it had huge effects.
11:28 >> You um you chose intentionally to come
11:30 and have this conversation today.
11:33 >> Why today?
11:35 >> Well I've been quite unwell really
11:38 noticeably unwell since uh January
11:40 February uh this year particularly very
11:44 very short of breath. It's it's because
11:45 the one of the failed valves in my my
11:48 heart is um causing blood to regurgitate
11:51 inside the heart rather than pumping it
11:53 through the body. And that means that
11:54 oxygenated blood is not getting to my
11:56 lungs. I probably would live another two
11:59 or three years without the surgery,
12:00 maybe maybe even five, but the quality
12:03 of life would be very low. I I can't
12:04 even walk up three stairs without being
12:06 being exhausted at the moment. So, I've
12:08 definitely decided to to have the
12:10 surgery. Why am I doing this interview
12:11 now rather than postponing it until
12:13 after the surgery and I've recovered?
12:14 Well, there's a tiny chance, absolutely
12:17 minuscule chance that I might not make
12:20 it off the operating table
12:21 >> this month.
12:22 >> Yeah, this month. And if that were the
12:25 case, uh this would be the last time
12:28 I've spoken about myself, my work, my
12:31 life, challenges I faced, uh in an open
12:34 forum like this. And and and I I I
12:37 choose to do that. And I'm going to say
12:39 specifically why without giving without
12:42 mentioning names. I choose to do that
12:44 because a journalist uh who has very bad
12:48 blood towards me has been trying to
12:51 publish a story on me for more than two
12:53 years now. Uh and it will come out in
12:55 the next in the next month or two. And I
12:57 didn't want that to be the last word of
12:59 my life. That's why I'm here. Stephen,
13:03 >> what do you want the last word of your
13:04 life to be?
13:06 I would I would hope that people will
13:09 come to understand that I'm not the
13:11 person that
13:13 a very small minority of archaeologists
13:16 have mobilized social media to present
13:18 me as. I'm not a grifter. I'm not a
13:21 hoaxer. I'm not a con man. I'm deeply
13:23 committed to this. I've devoted my life
13:25 to it for more than for more than 30
13:27 years. I'm passionate about it. It
13:29 matters to me. And I think again I'll be
13:32 laughed at for saying this, but I feel
13:33 called to do this. I feel I
13:37 I feel it's my obligation and my
13:39 responsibility to do this.
13:41 >> How is that disputed? Because I I guess
13:44 I need to understand human history to
13:46 understand why
13:47 >> the the the fundamental belief that you
13:49 have that there was a civilization that
13:51 we aren't talking about.
13:54 >> I'd like to be clear. It's not a belief.
13:56 Um this is another is a mistake that my
13:58 that my critics of often make. They they
14:00 think that I'm dealing with some sort of
14:01 belief system or some sort of cult here.
14:03 No, I'm not. I'm I'm just puzzled. I'm
14:06 just puzzled by the past and I'm puzzled
14:09 by the memories that have been passed
14:11 down to us and I'm puzzled that those
14:13 memories concur all around the world on
14:17 a serious cataclysmic event.
14:19 >> What is it that the your people that
14:22 aren't puzzled and are certain belief?
14:24 >> Yeah. They think that glacial lakes in
14:26 North America
14:28 gradually grew in size and overspilled
14:31 the ice dams that held them in place and
14:34 that the water from those lakes, some of
14:37 it went into the Atlantic Ocean and cut
14:39 the Gulf Stream. I don't dispute that
14:42 glacial lakes were involved, but those
14:43 lakes were filled up at a massive speed.
14:47 Nobody disputes that the Younger Dryus
14:48 was a cataclysmic event. It's just the
14:50 the degree of the cataclysm that's
14:52 disputed and what caused it that's
14:54 disputed.
14:55 >> But everyone agrees that humans are 300
14:59 15,000 years.
15:00 >> I mean at present when I started on this
15:03 quest back back in the late 80s early
15:06 90s it was felt that anatomically modern
15:09 human beings had not existed for more
15:11 than 50,000 years. Very recent really.
15:15 But this turned out to be complete
15:17 rubbish because anatomically modern
15:19 humans are much older than 50,000 years
15:21 ago. We have 196,000y old anatomically
15:25 modern human remains from Ethiopia. And
15:28 then finally 315,000
15:31 years ago a recent find in um Gibir Hood
15:35 in Morocco again anatomically modern
15:38 humans. So we can say that
15:41 if we define ourselves by our anatomy,
15:46 uh, brain size,
15:48 capacity of the skull, if we define
15:50 ourselves in those ways, we've been
15:51 around for at least 315,000 years and
15:53 probably much longer. That's that's just
15:55 an accident of discovery. And that's one
15:57 of the things that puzzles me. If we're
16:00 anatomically modern, if we've got all
16:02 the modern kit, if we've got the same
16:03 brains, we've got the same neurology,
16:05 everything is there. Why do we wait more
16:09 than 300,000 years to establish
16:13 something recognizable as a human
16:15 civilization? Why do we wait so long? We
16:18 got all the kit. There's evidence that
16:20 that our ancestors were aware of
16:22 agriculture, just chose not to use it
16:24 much, much much earlier than that. the
16:27 complex of events that leads to a
16:30 city-based civilization, which is the
16:33 kind of civilization we have now all
16:35 over the world that you can only really
16:38 trace that back to 6,000 years ago. Yes,
16:41 you can say that before 6,000 years ago
16:43 there was buildup to what became the
16:46 high civilizations.
16:48 But my question is why not much earlier?
16:51 Why why did we wait until that moment?
16:54 And and I don't find a satisfactory
16:56 answer to that question, except perhaps
16:58 we didn't wait. Perhaps we're missing
17:00 part of our story. And when I say a lost
17:03 civilization, I do not mean a
17:05 civilization like ours. I do not mean an
17:08 industrial civilization. I don't mean
17:10 they had cell phones or flew to the moon
17:13 or any of that I think they
17:14 were very different civilization from
17:16 ours. But they had conquered a number of
17:19 peaks and one of those peaks was
17:21 navigation and ocean seafaring. Hence
17:24 the survival of maps which show the
17:26 world as it looked during the ice age.
17:28 And another was astronomy. Uh and
17:32 another really important breakthrough
17:35 evidenced by by the ancient maps
17:37 particularly a category of maps called
17:38 the portalanos
17:40 um is accurate relative longitudes. This
17:43 is the Arantius Phineas map. It shows
17:45 Antarctica uh right there. Uh and and um
17:50 this is interesting because this map was
17:51 drawn in 1531.
17:53 Uh the problem is that our civilization
17:56 didn't discover Antarctica until 1820.
17:59 So its appearance on a map drawn in
18:01 1521,
18:03 particularly when we know that the map
18:06 was based on older source maps. And the
18:08 map maker tells us in his own legend
18:10 that he has uncovered material
18:12 previously hidden in darkness. When we
18:15 find that uh we have to begin to wonder
18:17 what is what is going on here. Had
18:19 somebody found Antarctica long before
18:22 long before we did uh and mapped it with
18:25 extremely accurate relative longitudes.
18:28 And that's important because our
18:30 civilization didn't crack the longitude
18:32 problem until the mid- 18th century.
18:34 What that meant was that if you're on a
18:36 vessel sailing west or east, uh you
18:39 might be 300 miles closer to a coastline
18:43 than you think you are and suddenly
18:45 you're on it in the night and you're
18:46 dead. Once you've got longitude work
18:48 out, you know exactly where you are. We
18:50 didn't get that until 1750, 1760
18:52 thereabouts with Harrison's chronometer.
18:55 So finding good longitudes on very
18:57 ancient maps is another puzzle that I
18:58 don't think archaeology solved. So, you
19:00 think there could have been a
19:01 civilization 20,000 years ago which was
19:03 before this young dryest moment where um
19:06 I mean I've got this photo here which
19:07 I'll throw up on the screen.
19:09 >> Yeah.
19:09 >> I think you say it's evidence that
19:11 something took place.
19:12 >> It is that's that's the younger dry
19:14 boundary. Uh and I'm with Alan West
19:15 who's one of the scientists from the
19:17 from the comet research group who are
19:19 working on the younger dry hypothesis.
19:21 And our hands are on that black stripe
19:23 running through the middle of the
19:24 drawer. And that is soot. That is
19:27 evidence of wildfires burning. Uh it's
19:30 full of nano diamonds, tiny little
19:32 diamonds microscopic size which are a
19:34 classic product of comet impacts. Uh
19:37 microspherules, some platinum, some
19:40 iridium. All signatures of a cometry
19:42 impact. And there it is. It's about 5 in
19:45 thick. That layer is the younger dus
19:47 boundary layer. It dates to 12,800 years
19:49 ago.
19:50 >> So for anyone that can't see, it's just
19:52 like a slice of earth. And there's this
19:53 black line going through through the
19:55 earth. We're in a draw here where a
19:57 river has cut a channel and it's exposed
19:59 the sides of the channel and on the
20:01 sides of the channel we can see this
20:02 black stripe running through and that is
20:04 precisely the younger driest boundary
20:06 >> and the current hypothesis is from a lot
20:08 of archaeologists is there wasn't a
20:10 human civilization before this point
20:12 12,000 years ago but you believe there's
20:14 strong evidence that there could have
20:15 been.
20:15 >> Yes.
20:16 >> So civilization then in your definition
20:18 of the word how do you define that? a
20:20 group of people gathering and working
20:22 together.
20:22 >> Fundamentally, it involves it involves
20:25 the willing organization or the
20:27 unwilling organization of labor. If you
20:29 look at a site like Gobeci in Turkey, we
20:32 have it on our timeline here somewhere.
20:34 It's 11,600
20:36 years old. Uh this is really an
20:39 extraordinary site. It's a it's a very
20:42 sophisticated site. It's very large. It
20:44 consists of large T-shaped megaliths
20:46 that can weigh up to 20 tons. There are
20:49 precise astronomical alignments in it.
20:52 Uh this was not done by two or three
20:54 people working together. This was well
20:56 that's the gobeci today covered by a a
20:58 modern canopy to keep uh fair enough to
21:02 keep the the weather off it because it
21:03 was previously deliberately buried by
21:05 its builders. Um but of course there's
21:07 much more around. Hundreds and hundreds
21:10 more pillars are still underground. We
21:11 know they're there because of ground
21:13 penetrating radar, but they've not been
21:15 excavated yet. So, so this was a major
21:17 project and interestingly the people who
21:20 built Gobeclet at that at the time
21:22 Gobeclet began there was no agriculture
21:25 happening there. They were all hunter
21:27 gatherers.
21:28 >> Mhm.
21:29 >> Nevertheless, they did something that
21:30 archaeologists used to say hunter
21:32 gatherers couldn't do. They organized
21:34 themselves. They made a huge project.
21:37 They implemented it and they delivered
21:38 it. And Gobecletep is not alone. It's
21:40 one of dozens of sites like that all
21:42 over Anatolia in in in Turkey. This was
21:45 a highly organized, sophisticated
21:47 huntergatherer civilization that was
21:49 involved in making this place.
21:51 >> I'm I'm a little bit confused. So, if
21:53 the ice age ended 11,700 years ago,
21:56 >> Yeah.
21:56 >> and Gbecki is 11,600 years ago,
22:00 >> that means there's a 100redyear gap
22:02 between the end of the ice age and
22:04 something as sophisticated as Gabbecki.
22:07 >> Not exactly. Because because dates in
22:09 this frame, they're not spot-on accurate
22:13 dates. Some will say the ice age ended
22:14 11,600. Some will say it ended 11,700
22:18 years ago. But the fact is that in this
22:20 window, the world was warming up again.
22:23 It was getting better. And that's when
22:25 this project was was created. And the
22:28 mystery is mystery for for
22:30 archaeologists anyway is that it was
22:31 hunter gatherers. And archaeologists are
22:33 now having to come to terms with that.
22:35 You see the idea was you had to have an
22:37 agricultural community first in order to
22:40 create projects like this because that
22:42 allows people to become specialists.
22:44 What if you generate a food surplus that
22:47 you can rely on then you can take people
22:49 with certain skills and say focus on
22:51 that become an astronomer become an
22:52 architect become an engineer we'll
22:55 support you in doing that. That was the
22:56 idea and that was why it was felt that
22:57 something like Gobeclet couldn't be
23:00 built until about 6,000 years ago when
23:02 there was widespread agriculture. But
23:04 that turned out not to be true. Uh it
23:06 was built by hunter gatherers, but
23:08 within a thousand years of it being
23:09 built, agriculture becomes present in
23:12 that whole area.
23:13 >> H origins of agriculture are definitely
23:16 earlier than we've than we've been
23:18 taught.
23:19 >> So it's funny because I don't know a lot
23:21 about the ice age, but humans survived
23:23 the ice age.
23:24 >> Oh god, yes, we we we did. It's just
23:26 it's just um
23:29 where do you want to be during an ice
23:30 age? That's the question.
23:32 >> What are my options?
23:34 If you were a rational being, which most
23:36 human beings are, you would immediately
23:38 exclude Northern Europe.
23:40 >> Absolutely no point in being in that
23:42 frozen, miserable wilderness.
23:45 >> You'd immediately exclude the northern
23:47 part of North America, too. No point in
23:50 being there. It's just horrible at that
23:51 time. Siberia, pretty rough. No, you'd
23:55 look for the tropics. You'd go you'd go
23:57 down close to the equator. you'd go to
23:59 the places that weren't affected by the
24:02 ice age, that were actually the best
24:04 real estate on Earth. That's where you'd
24:06 go. That's why uh if we are looking for
24:11 a missing episode in the human story,
24:13 we're wasting our time looking for it in
24:15 Northern Europe or North America. Uh we
24:18 should be looking for it in Mexico. We
24:21 should be looking for it in India. We
24:23 should be looking for it in Indonesia.
24:25 we should be looking for it uh around
24:28 Papu Nu Guinea. All of these areas that
24:30 were that were really great places to
24:32 live during the ice age. That's that's
24:34 the kind of place that the sort of
24:36 civilization I'm talking about could
24:37 have thrived.
24:38 >> What is the difference? You know, cuz on
24:39 here it says the earliest known humans
24:41 were 300,000 odd years ago.
24:43 >> Yeah.
24:44 >> What is the difference between these
24:45 humans 300,000 years ago and the
24:48 civilization you're describing 20,000
24:50 years ago that you believe existed?
24:52 Apart from what is perhaps wrongly
24:55 described as a slight refinement in
24:57 human features, natural selection
24:59 operating on what humans perceive as
25:01 beauty, I don't know. But otherwise, the
25:03 same
25:04 >> the same
25:04 >> the same. Yeah. Yeah. And again, that's
25:06 not that not disputed. Nobody's saying
25:08 that Jebel Hood human beings were
25:11 somehow different from us. They're
25:12 anatomically modern humans.
25:14 >> But how did they live um versus your
25:16 definition of ai civilization?
25:19 >> They lived a simple hunter gatherer
25:21 life.
25:21 >> Okay. in small groups.
25:22 >> Yeah. But somehow
25:25 around 11,600 years ago, people started
25:28 accumulating
25:30 monuments that can only be made with
25:32 large groups and organized organized
25:34 labor. You've got to you you have to
25:36 have a system. You have to can't build
25:37 something like Gobeci without planning
25:40 out in advance. You got to draw it out
25:41 somehow. There has to be a plan. It's
25:43 not something you just wing. Uh so so
25:46 there has to there's a missing
25:47 background to all of that which bothers
25:49 me. And again, so most people think
25:50 civilization started what 6,000 years
25:53 ago.
25:54 >> Yes. That that would be when
25:56 civilizations become archaeologically
25:58 visible. So you have uh ancient Sumemer,
26:03 Mesopotamia,
26:05 uh which roughly 3,500 I'm going to use
26:09 BC because everybody's familiar with
26:10 that. Roughly 3,500 BC, which is 5,500
26:15 years ago approximately. We start seeing
26:18 cities being built. We start seeing the
26:19 beginnings of writing taking place
26:21 around about the same time. The same
26:23 thing is happening in Egypt. Maybe a
26:25 couple of hundred years later, but the
26:27 new work that's being done in Egypt is
26:28 pushing Egypt much closer to to Sumer
26:32 narrowing that that window. Effectively,
26:34 you can say that these two civilizations
26:37 become archaeologically visible at the
26:39 same time. And uh they're not alone
26:41 because on the other side of the world
26:43 in Peru uh there's a civilization now
26:46 recognized called the Karal Supoupe
26:48 civilization which built pyramids uh
26:50 which also goes back 5,500 years. Uh and
26:54 and this is one of the mysteries I'm I'm
26:56 looking at now is is why we have these
26:59 apparently coincidental emergence of
27:02 high civilizations in the same window uh
27:05 all around the world. Indis Valley
27:07 civilization roughly the same 5,000
27:10 years old. Yeah. We're looking at Karal
27:12 here I think. Yeah. Yeah. These classic
27:15 these the feature is these circular
27:18 plazas in front of them and then the
27:19 pyramid with a and and uh you know these
27:22 were not and not expected in Peru. When
27:25 archaeologists think of Peru they tend
27:27 to think of Machu Picchu the Inca
27:29 civilization. That's what gets all the
27:32 coverage.
27:32 >> And that's 600 years ago.
27:34 >> That's 600 years ago. yesterday. Whereas
27:37 these Kal Supoupe pyramids, Karal,
27:41 Asparro, Bandura,
27:43 Pineo, these ones are much older,
27:48 thousands of years older. They're
27:49 extremely sophisticated. They built with
27:51 an earthquake proof technology. They
27:55 instead of using blocks, they put small
27:57 stones in in textile bags and those
28:01 allow a certain amount of shifting so
28:03 the thing doesn't collapse in an
28:04 earthquake. And this is 5,500 years old
28:07 getting on. So again, not an
28:10 agricultural civilization at the at that
28:12 time. They're a huntergatherer
28:14 civilization. So So archaeologists are
28:16 having to confront a reversal of their
28:18 model at the moment. And I think there's
28:20 room in that reversal of the model for a
28:23 forgotten episode in the human story.
28:25 >> Tell me about this forgotten episode in
28:26 the human story.
28:28 >> Yeah, it's uh it's remembered it's
28:30 remembered all around the world as a
28:32 golden age where there was no violence,
28:35 no cruelty. Um where great healers and
28:39 sages were at work. where powers that
28:42 are scorned in our society today such as
28:46 telepathy and telekinesis which are
28:49 regarded as completely non-existent by
28:51 our scientists uh were regarded as a
28:54 matter of fact of life in in in this
28:57 ancient world. That's uh a civilization
29:00 that emerged out of shamanism uh and
29:05 made something good. But then if you
29:08 follow the myths further as I've done,
29:10 you find something odd happens,
29:12 you find that they've stepped away from
29:16 the original purity.
29:18 That they've become
29:21 a culture that begins to impose its
29:23 power on others around the world. And
29:26 that's always given as the reason for
29:28 the cataclysm in the myths that that we
29:30 angered the gods. It might have been
29:32 with our noise. It might have been with
29:33 our irreverence. We angered the gods and
29:36 they sent a flood. They weren't happy
29:39 with their creation. They wanted to
29:41 start again, wipe the slate clean. And
29:44 so there's this there's always this
29:45 feeling in the myths and it's and I
29:47 can't explain it. I don't know what what
29:49 it comes from, but it's always there is
29:52 that in some way we ourselves
29:56 brought this upon ourselves. Is this
29:58 those people not understanding the
29:59 forces of mother nature and trying to
30:02 sort of justify it as
30:05 >> or perhaps a deeper understanding of the
30:07 forces of mother nature? Maybe
30:09 >> perhaps the way that human beings are
30:10 operating in the world today
30:14 um should be included amongst the forces
30:16 of nature. We we are a geological force.
30:19 Uh and worse than that, we're a psychic
30:21 force which is full of anger and hatred
30:24 and suspicion and and and mutual
30:26 destruction. That's not going to be good
30:28 for nature. That that's that's going to
30:31 be disturbing. We're an integrated
30:32 system in my view. We we're not
30:34 separate. Human beings are part of all
30:36 of this and what we do affects all of
30:38 that. And that's what the ancient myths
30:40 seem to testify to.
30:43 So, if I may finish on that,
30:46 >> when I look at our civilization today, I
30:48 I don't want to go off on a rant, but
30:50 when I look at our civilization today, I
30:52 see a civilization that ticks all the
30:54 mythological boxes. every single one for
30:57 the next lost civilization. And I
30:59 envision a situation
31:01 10 or 15,000 years from now when we will
31:04 be a myth,
31:06 a fantasy that our our ancestors
31:10 actually could speak to one another on
31:12 opposite sides of the planet, that our
31:13 ancestors they could fly to the moon, uh
31:16 you know, they could go to the depths of
31:18 the ocean. The archaeologists of that
31:19 time will say complete fantasy, just
31:21 made up, never happened, but it did.
31:25 We're that lost civilization
31:28 and we don't need a comet and we don't
31:30 need solar activity because if we're so
31:33 psychically messed up as a species,
31:35 we'll probably end up doing it to
31:36 ourselves.
31:39 That's what nuclear weapons are about.
31:41 mass species suicide
31:46 and the mental processes that drive that
31:50 very dangerous very effective of the
31:53 world we live in.
31:56 Hatred is a psychic force and uh the way
32:00 it's being generated around the world at
32:02 the moment and mobilized and focused is
32:05 um it's got to be bad for all of us
32:08 >> especially when we have such powers to
32:09 self-destruct. It's terrible. This This
32:12 is what drives me nuts is is looking at
32:14 the low consciousness level of the
32:17 so-called leaders on this planet. When I
32:19 look around the whole bunch of them,
32:22 I just see very low consciousness
32:24 individuals who define everything in
32:27 material terms. uh who who are who are
32:31 who are focused on
32:33 this also gets me into trouble but I
32:36 I think nationalism is something that
32:38 humanity needs to grow out of we need to
32:41 grow out of nationalism it's just an
32:43 extension of tribalism we need to grow
32:46 out of it soon and let me be clear I am
32:49 not talking about world government I
32:53 don't want anything like I don't want
32:54 any government I'm an anarchist
32:55 basically and that's what anarchy means
32:57 it means without government I don't not
32:59 any government at all. But we have to
33:02 get past this notion that by accident I
33:05 was born with this particular skin. You
33:07 know, the notion is that this these
33:09 accidents of birth define us. That we
33:12 must somehow massively respect and love
33:15 people who look like us and and and kind
33:17 of hate and fear people who don't look
33:19 like us. We have to get past that. We
33:21 have to get past that as a species. It's
33:23 really important. All human beings
33:25 everywhere all the same fundamentally.
33:27 Of course, we're vastly diverse. We have
33:29 we have incredible different gifts. I
33:33 value and appreciate the differences in
33:35 different cultures all around the world.
33:37 This is wonderful. But it doesn't have
33:39 to come with and we are better than you.
33:41 Uh and we're going to kill you because
33:42 you don't share our ideas. This is
33:45 insane. It's crazy. We're not a mature
33:48 species. We're we're a childish species.
33:49 And leading our species are leaders who
33:53 have the mentality of um deranged
33:57 teenagers.
33:58 >> We elected them.
33:59 >> Yeah, we did. Very unfortunately, which
34:02 shows how easy it is to manipulate
34:05 uh the narrative in the world today.
34:08 Today, who wins in elections isn't the
34:11 best person, isn't the good person,
34:12 isn't the person who's going to do good,
34:14 it's the best communicator who wins. So
34:16 this um ancient civilization that we
34:18 could have theoretically forgotten, you
34:19 were somewhat implying that maybe they
34:21 were right that their own actions
34:24 >> caused the
34:26 great flood as they say they they talk
34:28 about in mythology.
34:29 >> I floated that notion. Yeah. Yeah. They
34:31 might they might have been, but it's
34:33 enough to say that that's what they
34:34 believed because that's what all the
34:36 myths say. The Noah story is prefigured
34:39 in ancient Sumer um with um an almost
34:43 identical flood myth. The gods are
34:45 angry. A great flood is going to be
34:47 sent. The intention is to wipe out
34:50 humanity.
34:51 But this this god who's called Enki
34:55 says to Atraasis, "I'm going to save
34:56 you. Build a boat. Build it now. A big
34:59 one. Put into it the seeds of all things
35:02 that you will need. Bring each animal of
35:04 every kind into your boat." This is this
35:06 is a kind of survival arc which is
35:09 exactly the same as Noah. Noah's arc is
35:11 just copied on that. It's just borrowed
35:12 from that. And to people that say,
35:14 "Well, these are just stories. These are
35:15 fictions that someone wrote and then
35:17 they pass them down and there's no truth
35:18 in these things at all."
35:19 >> They're welcome to say that. Uh I I I
35:21 just happen to think they're not. And
35:23 and my job has been to make that case. I
35:26 do not claim that I have proved there
35:29 was a lost civilization. Any
35:30 archaeologist who says Hanok claims he's
35:32 proved that is lying. I don't claim
35:34 that. I claim I'm puzzled and mystified.
35:36 And I'm going to I'm going to complete
35:39 that journey as long as I can. I'm going
35:41 to carry on investigating and looking
35:43 into all aspects of this because that's
35:45 what I'm here to do.
35:47 >> And that lost civilization, you said
35:48 they were seabbearing potentially.
35:50 >> Seafaring. Yeah. Yeah.
35:51 >> Which means they had boats.
35:53 >> Yeah. Yeah. So we know, for example,
35:55 that anatomically modern uh human beings
35:58 reached Australia 60,000 years ago. That
36:00 those involve significant sea journeys.
36:02 They reached Cyprus in the Mediterranean
36:05 14,000 years ago. Again, they involve
36:07 sea journeys, not engine boats, not
36:10 metal boats. You can do it on quite
36:11 simple craft. Look at look at the
36:13 Polynesians. Look at the vast distances
36:15 that they explored on outrigger canoes.
36:18 Uh so yeah, boats, but not our kind of
36:21 boats.
36:23 >> H I just don't understand how if they're
36:25 traveling the seas and boats, how
36:27 they're they aren't classified as a
36:29 civilization. Well, because according to
36:33 the mainstream model which I am trying
36:35 to provide an alternative to, they never
36:38 existed. There was no such people. They
36:40 never did these things. The maps are
36:42 just coincidences, irrelevance, just
36:44 odd. They put Antarctica, they put a a
36:46 land mass in Antarctica because they
36:48 felt it would balance the world. That's
36:50 the theory that's given. And it's just
36:52 to me it's not it's not satisfactory.
36:55 Doesn't it just doesn't add up. These
36:57 things need to be explained. And it's
36:59 why it's why in every society which
37:02 wishes to make progress, uh, mavericks,
37:06 people who go against the grain, no
37:08 matter
37:11 how much they have to take, are
37:13 needed. They're needed in our society to
37:16 provide a balance to this overwhelming
37:19 mass that science now occupies. Science
37:22 has now come to occupy the space that
37:24 religion occupied in many people's
37:26 minds. And again, I need to emphasize
37:28 I'm not against science. Science.
37:30 Science is about to save my life. I have
37:32 major heart surgery coming up in two
37:34 weeks time. I'm not against it at all,
37:35 but I think it should be one weapon in
37:37 our armory, not the only weapon.
37:40 >> There should be a button just down below
37:42 here. And if it says subscribed, you're
37:44 already subscribed. If it says
37:46 subscriber, that means you're not yet.
37:48 And if you're not subscribed, please
37:49 could you do us a favor and hit that
37:50 button? It helps the show more than you
37:52 know. And according to the algorithm,
37:54 you're someone that watches our show,
37:55 but you haven't yet hit that button.
37:56 Thank you so much.
37:58 >> One of the um things I was super curious
38:00 about, cuz I was actually there last
38:01 last week, is this place,
38:04 >> Giza.
38:05 >> Pyramids of Giza.
38:06 >> The great pyramid of Giza.
38:09 Here we look at it. Attributed to the
38:11 pharaoh Kufu,
38:14 who was a pharaoh of the fourth dynasty.
38:17 >> What is the mystery here? So again,
38:19 pyramids are this big stack of like
38:21 concrete blocks in Egypt.
38:23 >> What is the Why is it so mysterious?
38:25 >> Well, first of all, they're not
38:26 concrete. They're they're human
38:28 limestone um and granite. Uh first of
38:31 all, it's mysterious for the sheer size
38:34 of it. Look.
38:36 So you got roughly 750 ft along each
38:39 side. Okay? And they vary in length by
38:45 only fractions of an inch. they've got
38:47 it just about spot-on exact on the side
38:50 length. And you want that in a pyramid
38:52 because if you get it wrong, you're
38:54 going to end up with a corkcrew rather
38:56 than a pyramid. If you get it wrong at
38:58 the bottom, those errors are going to
38:59 magnify and they're going to get worse
39:01 and worse and it's not going to be a
39:02 pyramid at the end of the day. Secondly,
39:06 weight calculated at about 6 million
39:08 tons,
39:11 more than 2 million individual blocks of
39:13 stone. I've climbed the pyramid five
39:16 times. Once I climbed it, when there was
39:18 an event taking place on the Giza
39:20 Plateau, picnics basically, and and a
39:23 lot of Kyne just decided to climb the
39:26 pyramid. As I say, I've climbed it four
39:28 other times without other people there,
39:29 but this time there were hundreds of
39:31 people on the pyramid. That's when I
39:34 realized how difficult this thing is to
39:36 make because the biggest danger was the
39:38 other people. Once you're up two or
39:40 three courses, you fall, you're dead.
39:42 It's uh it's a 52° slope. there's no way
39:46 you're going to stop. You're going to
39:47 come down and still every year people
39:49 die on the Great Pyramid. That's why
39:50 they've made it illegal to climb it now.
39:53 So, there's that. Then there's the
39:55 almost perfect alignment of the Great
39:57 Pyramid to true north. Not to compass
40:00 North, which is about 10 or 11 degrees
40:02 off true north, but to astronomical
40:04 north, real north. The Great Pyramid is
40:06 aligned within 3 60ths of a single
40:10 degree. I put it that way because
40:11 degrees are divided into 60 minutes. So,
40:13 3 minutes of arc. The Great Pyramid is
40:15 aligned to that level of precision,
40:17 360ths of a single degree to true north.
40:20 And they've done that on a 6 million ton
40:22 monument which is 481 ft high if you
40:25 take account of its original height
40:27 which has a 52° slope which is filled
40:29 with internal corridors and spaces,
40:32 Grand Gallery, the ascending, the
40:34 descending corridors. All of this is
40:38 extremely difficult to do. It is it's
40:40 not impossible to do because we see it
40:42 there. Uh, could our civilization do it?
40:45 Yeah, I think we could. Uh, but would we
40:48 do it? No, I don't think we would. Uh,
40:50 the motive wouldn't be there. People
40:51 say, "What the why? I mean, why do you
40:53 want to align it perfectly to true
40:55 north? It's enough to ask me to build a
40:57 6 million ton monument, but you want it
40:59 aligned to true north as well. Come on.
41:01 I mean, that's a really difficult
41:03 specification. We'd find that hard." um
41:06 a kind of artistry
41:09 was put to work on the Great Pyramid as
41:11 well as skill. Let's get rid of any
41:13 notion that slaves were involved. They
41:15 were not there. There wasn't slavery in
41:18 the Old Kingdom anyway, but this is a
41:19 work of love from the first to the last
41:22 stone. It's a work done with great skill
41:24 and care. It's a beautiful and
41:27 extraordinary thing both inside and out.
41:31 It sits almost exactly on latitude 30
41:34 which is 1/ird of the way between the
41:36 north pole and the equator. And uh it
41:40 incorporates the dimensions of the earth
41:42 on a scale of 1 to 43,200
41:46 in its own dimensions. So if you take
41:48 the height of the great pyramid and
41:49 multiply it by 43,200.
41:52 I'll explain why that number matters.
41:54 Multiply it by that number, you get the
41:56 polar radius of the earth. Measure the
41:58 base perimeter of the Great Pyramid.
42:00 multiply it by the same factor, 43,200,
42:03 and you get the equatorial circumference
42:05 of the Earth.
42:07 Archaeologists know this. They say it's
42:10 a coincidence, total coincidence, just
42:12 by chance. However, I I could agree with
42:15 them actually if the scale was not 1 to
42:18 43,200.
42:20 But the fact that it's 1 to 43,200
42:23 changes everything because that belongs
42:25 to a sequence of numbers that is found
42:27 in ancient mythology all around the
42:30 world. And those numbers are all
42:32 multiples of the number 72. And I
42:35 mentioned at the beginning of our
42:36 discussion the book by the great
42:39 historian of science Giorgio de
42:41 Santiliano professor of the history of
42:43 science at MIT. He was the first to
42:46 identify that these numbers and the
42:48 imagery that go with them derive from a
42:51 phenomenon called the precession of the
42:53 equinoxes. I better explain that a
42:55 little bit. The procession of the
42:57 equinoxes.
42:58 Everybody's heard the song We live in
43:00 the dawning of the age of Aquarius. I'm
43:03 sure you've heard that.
43:05 >> Uh no comment.
43:07 >> We live in the dawning of the age of
43:08 Aquarius.
43:10 That's astrology at the moment. And for
43:13 the last 2,000 years on the spring
43:15 equinox, the sun has risen against the
43:18 background of the constellation of
43:20 Pisces.
43:21 That's the age of Pisces. We live in the
43:24 age of Pisces. It's not an accident that
43:26 the early Christians used the fish as
43:28 their symbol.
43:30 >> The next constellation on the zodiac
43:32 when you go backwards around it is
43:34 Aquarius.
43:36 And the procession is actually caused by
43:38 a wobble on the axis of the Earth. I'm
43:41 going to pretend that this is the Earth.
43:42 >> Okay.
43:43 >> And instead of just doing this, while
43:46 it's doing that, it's also doing that.
43:48 It's wobbling.
43:50 >> And that affects the rising time and
43:52 season at which particular stars rise.
43:53 It affects two things noticeably. One
43:56 thing it affects is the pole star. At
43:58 the moment, the pole star is Polaris.
44:00 The pole star, this is astron
44:02 astronomical north. It's the star
44:04 towards which the extended north pole
44:06 pole of the earth points most directly.
44:09 >> Okay. At present, it's Polaris. It
44:11 hasn't always been Polaris. 4,000 years
44:13 ago, it was Thuban in the constellation
44:14 of Draco. That's because the Earth's
44:16 axis is doing this. At the horizon, it
44:19 does the same thing with the zodiacal
44:21 constellations. We shift gradually
44:23 through each constellation lasts about
44:25 2,000 years in each constellation. The
44:27 great year where we come back to square
44:29 one is just under 26,000 years. 25,920
44:33 years is the convention that's applied
44:35 in ancient mythology. So, the fact that
44:38 one of those numbers is the scale used
44:41 to encode the dimensions of the earth in
44:43 the Great Pyramid cannot be accidental
44:45 in my view. It's a deliberate choice. If
44:47 it was 1 to 57,000,
44:49 I wouldn't pay attention to it. If it
44:51 was 1 to 21,000,
44:53 I wouldn't pay attention to it. But 1 to
44:54 43,200,
44:56 that's the number of syllables in the
44:58 Rigveda, for example. You find this all
45:00 over the world, everywhere.
45:02 >> So, what does that imply or suggest? Uh
45:04 what it suggests is that incorporated
45:07 into the building of the great pyramid
45:09 was knowledge that was not supposed to
45:11 have existed 4 and a half thousand years
45:13 ago. In fact, knowledge that was not
45:15 supposed to have existed until 2,000
45:17 years ago. Hypocus of Alexandria is the
45:19 Greek who was supposed to have
45:20 discovered procession. Uh but the
45:23 incorporation of procession in the
45:26 structure of the Great Pyramid says to
45:28 me that that knowledge is much older. It
45:30 was already old then. I really want to
45:32 make sure I'm clear on this procession
45:33 thing because I'm not not super clear.
45:35 Yeah. Um, what does it what does it mean
45:37 procession? It means that there's a
45:39 certain star pattern that we see once
45:41 every 20,000 years.
45:42 >> It it it it precesses. It goes
45:44 backwards. The direction through the
45:46 through the zodiac is is forwards in the
45:49 normal year, but in the long term year
45:52 because of the wobble, the sun rise
45:54 against the background of the spring
45:56 equinox. The sun rises perfectly due
45:58 east. It always does. It also rises
46:00 perfectly due east on the autumn
46:01 equinox. On the summer solstice, the sun
46:04 rises in the northern hemisphere north
46:05 of east and south of east on the on the
46:08 winter solstice. The key moment for the
46:11 ancients was the equinox. It was
46:13 considered to define the character of
46:15 the year. And what defined it was the
46:18 constellation that housed the sun that
46:20 was the house of the sun.
46:22 >> Okay. So the star pattern.
46:23 >> Yeah. The a zodiacal constellation.
46:27 These the constellations of the zodiac
46:29 lie along what is called the ecliptic,
46:31 the path of the sun.
46:33 >> Okay.
46:33 >> Okay. The earth, the moon, we're all on
46:35 the ecliptic within a few degrees above
46:38 or below it. And and therefore, these
46:41 are constellations that we can see the
46:43 sun against the background of.
46:45 >> Constellation like Orion, you'll never
46:47 see the sun against the background of
46:48 it. You're only going to see it against
46:50 the background of the zodiacal
46:51 constellations that lie on the so-called
46:54 path of the sun. And those are the 12
46:56 familiar constellations of the zodiac.
46:58 And as I say, we're living in the age of
47:01 Pisces right now. And uh according to
47:04 ancient astrology, we're going to be
47:06 making the transition into Aquarius
47:08 within about the next 150 years. The sun
47:10 will have left Pisces and will be rising
47:13 in Aquarius. So actually, the song is
47:15 true. We do live in the dawning of the
47:16 age of Aquarius. The only question is
47:18 whether that means anything or not. The
47:20 ancients thought it did. Uh we think it
47:22 doesn't. Uh, I'm not sure who's right.
47:25 >> So, I'm going to repeat this back to you
47:27 to check if I'm I've got it correctly,
47:28 but I suspect I might not have. Within
47:30 the design of the pyramids, there was a
47:33 number which you said was 43,000.
47:35 >> It's a scale.
47:36 >> It's a scale.
47:37 >> It's a scale that's used for the height
47:39 and the base perimeter of the Great
47:41 Pyramid. Base perimeter, measure, four
47:43 sides, add it together. Height, the
47:46 actual height of the Great Pyramid. It's
47:47 true original height. It lost about 30
47:49 feet in an earthquake in 131. But you
47:52 can calculate the true original height
47:54 from the angle of the of the sides.
47:57 >> Ah yeah right.
47:58 >> Um and when you take that height
48:01 >> and multiply it by 43,200
48:05 you get the polar radius of the earth.
48:07 >> You get the radius of the earth.
48:09 >> That's from the center of the earth to
48:11 the edge of the earth. It's not the
48:12 diameter of the earth. The diameter is
48:14 twice the radius.
48:15 >> It's the it's the polar radius. Okay.
48:18 >> A key dimension of the earth. measure
48:20 the sides and you get on the same scale
48:24 1 to 43,200, you get the equatorial
48:27 circumference of the Earth, what the
48:28 Earth measures at its equator, its
48:30 largest its largest measure. Um, and and
48:34 that uh is either a coincidence or it's
48:37 deliberate. And because of the number
48:39 chosen and because that number is all
48:42 over ancient mythology, I think it's
48:44 deliberate.
48:45 >> That means that they must have known the
48:47 circumference of the Earth.
48:48 >> Yeah. It means they they knew the
48:50 circumference of the earth and it means
48:51 they chose a place to put the great
48:54 pyramid which also was relevant. Uh this
48:57 isn't latitude 23 or latitude 37. This
49:01 is just a fraction off latitude 30°
49:04 north. So therefore 1/3 of the way
49:07 between the equator and the north pole.
49:08 It's a it's a re it's a significant
49:10 relevant. What it's telling us is this
49:13 monument speaks to the earth. This
49:14 monument is locked into the true north
49:17 of this planet. This monument gives you
49:19 the dimensions of this planet. This
49:22 monument is speaking to this planet.
49:25 >> How could they possibly know the
49:26 circumference of the Earth 4,500 years
49:28 ago?
49:28 >> Because they're a lost civilization
49:30 because the the knowledge comes down
49:32 from a former time. I don't think the
49:34 Egyptians knew it. I think it came down
49:36 I think it was inherited knowledge from
49:40 what I'm here to advocate for and to
49:43 speak for the possibility of a major
49:45 forgotten episode in the human story
49:47 >> which could be 20,000 years ago and
49:50 they've passed it down in in myths and
49:53 stories.
49:53 >> Yes, passed it down but not only in
49:55 myths and stories. Um, this is something
49:58 else that I will I'll just hint at here
50:01 that I intend to get into in the new
50:03 book is that there appear to have been
50:06 organizations
50:07 in each of these civilizations. In
50:10 Egypt, they were called the followers of
50:12 Horus.
50:15 In Sumer, they were called the Akcaloo.
50:19 They served as advisers to kings. They
50:21 were called sages. There's a reference
50:23 to them. Many cultures refer to them as
50:25 the seven sages. They provided advice to
50:28 kings in the historical period. And I'm
50:31 wondering whether we're looking at some
50:33 kind of longived organization here which
50:36 is carrying down information looking for
50:39 the right time to switch the engine of
50:42 civilization back on again. I know it's
50:45 sounds extreme but uh that's what I do.
50:48 I explore I explore extreme ideas and
50:50 see whether and see whether they fit or
50:53 not. And I'm beginning to find this idea
50:55 does fit it. It fit it fits with a whole
50:57 range of information which will be in
50:59 the next book.
51:00 >> A sage that reports to the king. And
51:02 >> it not only reports to the king but
51:04 advises the king
51:05 >> on what?
51:06 >> On everything on what to do. Oh okay.
51:08 >> Yeah.
51:09 >> The abcalu in the ancient traditions of
51:12 Sumer they existed in the pre-deluvian
51:15 world. They were there in the world
51:16 before the flood. Then there and and
51:19 they taught mankind knowledge then. But
51:24 the flood came, the cataclysm came, they
51:26 were wiped out. But some of the abcalu
51:28 survived and they appear after the flood
51:31 as advisers to the earliest historical
51:33 kings of Sumer. And I'm just wondering
51:36 whether you know there are there are
51:40 religions in the world which have
51:42 maintained traditions and maintained
51:45 offices, priesthoods for example for
51:47 thousands of years. I don't see why the
51:49 same shouldn't be true here. Why there
51:50 shouldn't have been some driving motive
51:53 at the end of the ice age to preserve in
51:55 a way what they knew and to find
51:56 mechanisms to pass it down. One
51:58 mechanism is to embed it in wonderful
52:00 stories that will go on being told. And
52:02 another mechanism is to set up some kind
52:05 of secret society which is operating
52:07 behind the scenes to guide and steer
52:10 society. I'm not going to present the
52:12 evidence for that here, but it's an
52:13 avenue I'm pursuing. If I if I don't
52:16 find it a satisfactory avenue, I'll
52:18 abandon it. But at the moment, it's
52:19 looking very interesting.
52:21 >> Then where did all this information
52:23 go? You know, because if the people who
52:26 built the pyramids of Giza had this
52:27 information, where did the sages go and
52:29 with their information?
52:30 >> Yeah, it's very it's very odd actually
52:32 what what happens after Giza is
52:34 fascinating. Um because once you once
52:38 you leave the fourth dynasty period, get
52:41 into the fifth and sixth dynasties,
52:43 pyramid building collapses. The stuff
52:46 they're making in the fifth dynasty,
52:47 like the pyramid of Unas, fifth dynasty
52:50 pyramid in Sakara.
52:54 Inside it's stunningly beautiful.
52:57 Beautiful tomb chamber, stars on the
52:59 ceiling, incredible hieroglyphs on the
53:02 side. It's magical. But outside it's
53:05 just a pile of dust. It's a mess. It
53:07 doesn't even you could hardly recognize
53:09 it as a pyramid. And it's true of all
53:10 those. So this is odd in itself.
53:14 Normally when human cultures create
53:17 something they continue to work on it
53:20 and it tends to get better and better
53:21 not worse and worse. So it's odd what
53:24 happens to the pyramids that they get
53:25 worse and worse in Egypt. It's like job
53:27 done that move on and that's there and
53:31 that's going to speak to human beings
53:34 not just for a generation, not just for
53:37 a hundred years. It's going to be there
53:38 speaking to us for thousands of years.
53:40 It's going to be sitting there on the
53:41 Giza plateau like an enormous question
53:43 mark calling towards it those who don't
53:46 see it just as a heap of stones but
53:48 actually see it as something wonderful
53:50 and magnificent and mysterious calling
53:52 them to and saying learn about me figure
53:55 me out and in the process of learning
53:57 about me you're going to learn so much
53:59 else well in learning about the great
54:01 pyramid I find that it is encoded with
54:03 astronomical information that should not
54:05 be there if the current model of the
54:08 history of science is correct. I think
54:11 the current model of the history of
54:12 science is wrong. I think this
54:14 information was known much earlier and
54:15 it's encoded in the great pyramid. Once
54:17 I know that, then I have to start
54:19 thinking what else does that mean? And
54:21 what else it means to me is a big
54:24 forgotten episode in our story
54:26 >> again. Why? Because they had
54:29 intelligence that they're not credited
54:30 with having at that time.
54:31 >> Yes. Because it's there. Because there
54:34 should not be a monument of this scale
54:38 which incorporates into it information
54:40 that was not supposed to be available to
54:42 human beings for another 2 and a half
54:43 thousand years.
54:45 >> So they must have got it from somewhere.
54:46 >> Yes, they must have got it from
54:47 somewhere. And and uh the fact that it's
54:50 there is is just a fact. All that's left
54:53 for us to say is either it's a
54:56 coincidence, complete coincidence, or
55:00 it's the result of a deliberate
55:02 decision. And if it's the result of a
55:04 deliberate decision, that weighs much
55:06 more towards a deliberate decision
55:08 because of the scale chosen because the
55:10 scale is part of a system that is found
55:13 all over the ancient world. It's not a
55:15 random number. It's a very specific
55:17 number. uh and it's a number that is
55:19 derived from a motion of the earth
55:21 itself from the precession of the
55:23 earth's axis. It is derived from that.
55:25 So I'm situated at a significant
55:28 latitude. I'm oriented to true north and
55:31 I incorporate the measurements of your
55:34 planet on a scale derived from your
55:37 planet itself. That's what the Great
55:38 Pyramid is saying to us. And it's saying
55:40 figure that out.
55:42 >> Do you think there's something
55:43 underneath it?
55:44 >> Oh, there's definitely something
55:45 underneath it. Because we think of it as
55:47 a sort of like building with the with
55:48 tunnels inside it. But
55:49 >> yeah, when you go into the great pyramid
55:51 now, you go in through what is what is
55:54 called the robber's tunnel or Mammoon's
55:57 hole. The Khalifa Mammoon had a notion
56:00 that there would be a entrance to the
56:02 Great Pyramid in its northern face.
56:05 Other pyramids had been found with
56:06 entrances in their northern face, but at
56:08 that time the Great Pyramid was
56:10 completely covered with perfectly smooth
56:12 limestone facing stones and nobody could
56:14 see the entrance. They came off later in
56:16 that earthquake in 13001, but when he
56:18 broke in in the 9th century, they didn't
56:21 know where the door was. Apparently,
56:23 there was a place you could almost
56:25 literally press a switch and open that
56:27 door, but they couldn't find it. So,
56:29 they broke in with sledgehammers and
56:30 chisels and they smashed their way into
56:32 the Great Pyramid. And then at a certain
56:35 moment when they're about 60 or 70 ft
56:37 into the Great Pyramid, they hear
56:39 something dropping in a hollow space. a
56:41 big something has fallen in a hollow
56:44 space. They head towards that sound and
56:47 then they enter the original corridor
56:49 system of the Great Pyramid. And that's
56:51 the way we all go in now. We go in
56:52 through that robber's tunnel and then we
56:54 go up the Grand Gallery, but we can also
56:56 go down. We can go down to the
56:58 subterranean chamber, which is 100 ft
57:01 vertically beneath the base of the Great
57:03 Pyramid, deep in the bedrock. I actually
57:06 think that was the original sacred site
57:08 on that monument is that subterranean
57:10 chamber. I don't advise anybody with
57:13 claustrophobia to go down there. You're
57:16 very conscious that you got a 6 million
57:17 ton monument sitting right above you and
57:19 it place that has earthquakes. Um it can
57:22 be quite oppressive, but that's just a
57:25 hint of what's under the Giza plateau.
57:27 That's just that's an accessible bit. Uh
57:29 but it's it's it's already obvious that
57:32 there that there is so much more. Some
57:34 of it's being picked up with ground
57:35 penetrating radar. And I'll take this
57:37 opportunity to say that the hysterical
57:40 reaction of mainstream scientists to the
57:44 announcement by Filippo Beyond uh
57:47 >> what is he saying?
57:48 >> He's saying that there are enormous
57:50 structures under the second pyramid that
57:51 not the great pyramid under the pyramid
57:53 attributed to Kafrey Kufu's successor.
57:56 the the structures that go hundreds of
57:59 feet deep under there, structures that
58:01 involve spiral
58:04 kind of stairways. The reaction has been
58:07 overwhelmingly dismissing this.
58:09 Archaeologists have not they won't look
58:10 further. They say it's impossible and
58:13 they won't look at it. And I think
58:14 that's shameful for people who imagine
58:16 they're scientists. They should be
58:18 looking further. I'd like to see the
58:20 technology trial in Turkey. There are
58:21 underground cities in Turkey, Kaimaki,
58:24 for example. we know every room in those
58:27 underground cities. Run this technology
58:29 on them. If they accurately reproduce
58:32 what we already know is there, then we
58:33 can be pretty sure they're accurately
58:35 reproducing what's under the Giza
58:36 pyramids. We need to do a lot more work
58:38 before dismissing this. So, I'm I remain
58:40 open to the notion that a huge
58:43 underworld awaits discovery under Giza.
58:46 And the ancient Egyptians themselves
58:47 felt that way. They felt that Giza, the
58:49 ancient name for it was Rosttow. It was
58:51 an entrance to the underworld. They saw
58:53 it as an entrance to the afterlife
58:55 realm. It makes sense that there would
58:57 be much much underground structures
58:59 there.
58:59 >> And you've been alone in the pyramids.
59:01 >> Being with large groups in the pyramid
59:03 is difficult in the sense that the
59:05 pyramid to me feels like a personality.
59:07 When I'm in there with a large group, I
59:09 I feel the pyramid withdrawing. It it
59:12 it's like it doesn't want to speak to
59:13 you anymore. It's the place becomes a
59:15 dead space. But but if you can be in
59:18 there with a very small group or be
59:19 there alone
59:21 and just be still,
59:24 let the silence descend. Sit in that
59:27 silence in the very low lighting that's
59:29 in there.
59:31 Just pause and
59:35 remind yourself that you're in the last
59:36 surviving wonder of the ancient world
59:38 and it's an incredible privilege to be
59:40 there.
59:42 And just let it speak to you. And it
59:44 does. This is of course my critics will
59:46 say another proof that Hanok's a
59:48 lunatic. Uh but uh I'm just telling you
59:51 what what what what happens to me. It's
59:53 a I I think it's a monument that
59:55 communicates.
59:56 >> What did it say to you?
59:58 >> It said to me go further
1:00:01 very much so. I I I I feel
1:00:06 in a weird way validated by the Great
1:00:09 Pyramid. I think it's um not only me,
1:00:13 others as well who've devoted big chunks
1:00:16 of their lives to the great pyramid like
1:00:18 Robert Baval who is a great man by the
1:00:21 way. The Orion correlation, the
1:00:24 recognition that the three pyramids on
1:00:25 the ground are laid out in the pattern
1:00:26 of the belt stars of the constellation
1:00:28 of Orion makes radical and important
1:00:30 changes to our understanding of ancient
1:00:32 Egypt. Again, that's another thing
1:00:33 that's been leapt upon by the
1:00:35 archaeological mafia, uh, because they
1:00:37 want to destroy every new idea, uh,
1:00:40 rather than spend a bit of time thinking
1:00:41 about it.
1:00:43 >> You guys know that I only drink one type
1:00:46 of coffee these days, and it's called
1:00:47 Cometia. If you don't know the brand,
1:00:49 they flash freeze coffee at the perfect
1:00:51 moment to lock in all of the amazing
1:00:53 flavor. They've done something
1:00:54 incredible. They've gone all around the
1:00:56 world and they found the most delicious
1:00:58 coffees from all of these places and
1:01:00 they've created a world mug competition
1:01:03 box that you can buy. So if you want to
1:01:06 try coffee from Honduras or Panama or
1:01:08 England or the USA or Italy or France,
1:01:11 you can then order that particular
1:01:13 coffee on subscription to come to your
1:01:14 house. No machines necessary. Not only
1:01:17 are they our sponsor and a company I
1:01:19 have invested in, it is the only coffee
1:01:21 I drink now. Actually this morning when
1:01:23 I came to work I put contier one of
1:01:25 these wet ws which is another one of my
1:01:27 favorites from France. So if you want to
1:01:28 try your own contier they've reserved a
1:01:32 certain amount for D of listeners just
1:01:34 go to contier.com/d
1:01:39 and you can get $20 off if you use the
1:01:41 code dac at checkout. You know the
1:01:44 little traditional SIM card that goes
1:01:46 inside of our phones? They haven't
1:01:47 changed at all since they were invented
1:01:50 in the '90s. You have this physical
1:01:52 piece of plastic that means you're
1:01:53 locked into one carrier, one network,
1:01:55 and the second you cross a border, that
1:01:58 carrier can start charging you whatever
1:02:00 they want. But there are alternatives,
1:02:01 and today's sponsor, Sy, is one of them.
1:02:04 It's an eim app that gives you a safe
1:02:06 and secure data connection in over 200
1:02:09 destinations. All of their eims have
1:02:11 built-in cyber security, which is great
1:02:13 if you're traveling for work and looking
1:02:14 at confidential material. I've been
1:02:16 using SY whenever I travel because the
1:02:18 connection is always reliable and it
1:02:20 saves me a ton of roaming fees. It also
1:02:22 means I don't have to deal with all of
1:02:24 the faf that surrounds sorting out a SIM
1:02:26 everywhere I go. If you want to give it
1:02:27 a try, download the SY app from the app
1:02:29 store now and scan the QR code on
1:02:31 screen. And if you want 15% off your
1:02:34 first purchase, use my code D
1:02:38 when you get to checkout. That's D O A
1:02:41 for 15% off. Keep that to yourself.
1:02:45 If what you're saying is true around
1:02:47 the, you know, the first civilizations
1:02:50 being 20 plus thousand years ago, what
1:02:53 does that mean for us, for our lives?
1:02:57 >> Oh, it's really important meaning for us
1:02:59 because because it will finally remind
1:03:02 us and tell us once and for all that
1:03:03 we're not what it's all about.
1:03:06 >> It's not all about us. The whole human
1:03:08 story is not about us. It's not
1:03:10 inevitable that it comes to this and
1:03:12 that we are temporary like every other
1:03:14 civilization. We're so filled with
1:03:17 arrogance and pride right now in our
1:03:19 technological achievements, our great
1:03:21 abilities, our great powers
1:03:24 and uh the arrogance that comes with
1:03:26 that. The Greeks used to call that
1:03:28 hubris. It's ultimately ends in nemesis.
1:03:32 Ultimately brings you down. Arrogance
1:03:35 arrogance is not a good thing. It's not
1:03:37 a good thing in an individual and it's a
1:03:39 terrible thing in a civilization.
1:03:41 >> It also means that a lot of the things
1:03:43 that we've dismissed as you know
1:03:45 conspiracy or you know hocus pocus
1:03:48 whatever might not be. I mean you talk a
1:03:51 lot about like astrology and stuff like
1:03:52 that and
1:03:53 >> yeah I think we should keep open to to
1:03:56 systems that the ancients used which
1:03:58 we've dismissed like
1:04:00 >> which might be very astrology is one of
1:04:02 them. What does astrology ultimately
1:04:04 say? It it ultimately says that
1:04:07 we these beings these humans aren't
1:04:10 isolated but are connected to the
1:04:13 universe and are affected by everything
1:04:15 that happens in the universe and it's
1:04:17 and it's recognizing that there may be
1:04:18 patterns in that and instead of instead
1:04:21 of just rubbishing that or doing a few
1:04:24 investigations I think it may be worth
1:04:26 looking further into that worth looking
1:04:28 further into telepathy too my friend
1:04:30 Rbert Sheldrich a serious scientist one
1:04:32 of the very few who's doing serious
1:04:34 scientist ific work on
1:04:37 issues like telepathy and like
1:04:39 telekinesis, being able to move things
1:04:41 with your mind. Mainstream scientists,
1:04:43 most of them will just laugh at that.
1:04:45 Absolute rubbish. Yeah, go away. You're
1:04:47 a lunatic. But why are we lunatics to
1:04:50 look into those things? It's really
1:04:51 interesting and it's really worth
1:04:53 investigating. We re should realize that
1:04:56 we have a heritage of hundreds of
1:04:58 thousands of years and I believe it's
1:05:00 even older than 315,000 years. We do not
1:05:04 have a heritage of a hundred years,
1:05:06 which is the heritage of modern science.
1:05:08 Well, let's let's be generous. Let's put
1:05:10 modern science even back to the Greeks
1:05:13 in a way. But it doesn't become what we
1:05:15 would recognize as science until the
1:05:18 19th century really. So, it's a very
1:05:20 young thing on if you take the human
1:05:23 being as the as the heart of this and
1:05:26 and and you were to find a little pimple
1:05:28 on the nose of that human being, that
1:05:30 would be science. It's a pimple on the
1:05:33 nose of hundreds of thousands of years
1:05:35 of human experience. Why should we be so
1:05:38 arrogant to dismiss those hundreds of
1:05:41 thousands of years of human experience
1:05:42 in the favor of 150 years maximum of
1:05:45 so-called science?
1:05:47 >> I mean, one of the interesting things is
1:05:49 I actually did go to the Amazon
1:05:51 rainforest in Peru. Um,
1:05:53 >> and they've discovered these like big
1:05:55 square things underground.
1:05:57 >> I've been involved in that.
1:05:58 >> What is What is that? Well, the the name
1:06:00 that's being given to them is uh is
1:06:02 geoglyphs.
1:06:03 >> Geoglyphs.
1:06:05 >> I think I know this one. Nobody knew
1:06:06 they existed at all until about 40 years
1:06:10 ago
1:06:11 >> really.
1:06:11 >> And uh because the Amazon rainforest is
1:06:14 a rainforest and and densely covered
1:06:17 with uh canopy. However, it's constantly
1:06:22 being settled. This is a problem in
1:06:23 itself. It's constantly being settled.
1:06:25 The Amazon is being cleared and it's
1:06:27 being turned into farms. It's the
1:06:28 clearance of bits of the Amazon
1:06:29 initially that exposed these huge
1:06:33 geometric structures.
1:06:34 >> Mhm.
1:06:35 >> Under the rainforest, no longer under
1:06:37 because they cleared the rainforest. Now
1:06:38 with LiDAR, I've been involved with
1:06:40 Marty Parsonan. In fact, he was on my
1:06:42 Netflix show. He's a archaeologist from
1:06:45 Finland and and with Alteo Ramanzi, a
1:06:48 Brazilian geographer. Um what they're
1:06:50 doing is a dense lidar survey of the
1:06:54 whole of Ara province in Brazil. This is
1:06:56 in our Cray province as well. The areas
1:06:59 that are still under canopy rainforest
1:07:01 and lidar can see through the canopy and
1:07:03 it can see raised objects underneath and
1:07:06 it can actually give you the shape of
1:07:07 that object. Then they can go in low u
1:07:11 you know low impact just a few of them
1:07:13 go in check it out see what's there and
1:07:15 then begin the archaeology on the site.
1:07:17 >> I mean this is a prime example. I've got
1:07:19 um I've got a list here of things that
1:07:20 we used to believe and things that how
1:07:23 those beliefs have changed. And one of
1:07:24 them was that we used to believe that
1:07:26 the Amazon was an untouched wilderness.
1:07:27 >> That's right.
1:07:28 >> But in the 1970s, we discovered what, a
1:07:30 thousand of these structures
1:07:32 >> at least. Uh they're confident now from
1:07:35 the LAR work that they're you're talking
1:07:37 of thousands,
1:07:39 3, five, 6 thousand. There are also
1:07:41 roadways that run for 100 km plus. Uh
1:07:45 there's absolutely no doubt that the
1:07:46 Amazon once supported a population of
1:07:48 millions with um extraordinary clever
1:07:52 management of rainforest. soils by
1:07:55 creating a man-made soil that they call
1:07:57 terrapa. It's still used in Brazil
1:07:58 today. We are having to
1:08:01 completely reconceive the Amazon.
1:08:04 It was thought of as a pristine
1:08:06 rainforest which a few human beings
1:08:09 wandered around aimlessly in hunting
1:08:12 whatever. Now we know that it was the
1:08:16 homeland
1:08:18 of a very large population who lived in
1:08:20 city-sized communities.
1:08:23 um who joined those communities with
1:08:26 long straight roadways.
1:08:28 It's it's as though the veil is being
1:08:30 pulled back and we're beginning to see a
1:08:32 completely untold story in the Amazon.
1:08:35 And these geoglyphs,
1:08:37 very precise rectangles, triangles,
1:08:40 circles, squares, all of these it's
1:08:43 geometry. It's geometry. What what's it
1:08:45 what's it doing there in the Amazon? And
1:08:47 and when I when I talked to a local
1:08:49 shaman about this, and I did on on
1:08:51 camera in the in the in the Netflix
1:08:52 show, um he talked to me about how
1:08:55 important these places still are to him,
1:08:57 that these places were made by their
1:08:59 ancestors, that they're places for
1:09:01 shamanic gatherings,
1:09:03 places for shamans to use specifically
1:09:07 to contact the world beyond. Let's be
1:09:10 clear about this. All civilizations,
1:09:12 including ours, although we may deny it,
1:09:14 all of them emerged from shamanism.
1:09:16 Shamanism is the essence uh of the human
1:09:20 adventure uh and and all civilizations
1:09:22 emerge from shamanism. And this one was
1:09:24 shamanism. Yes. Shamanism being the
1:09:27 system of using altered states of
1:09:29 consciousness to gain direct access to
1:09:33 other levels of reality
1:09:35 >> like psychedelics.
1:09:36 >> Yeah, psychedelics or you can fast for a
1:09:39 month. Uh that will give you some
1:09:41 visions too. Uh there there are there
1:09:43 are other ways but but psychedelics are
1:09:45 the most efficient way to enter the
1:09:47 altered state of consciousness and
1:09:48 shamans are masters of the use of plant
1:09:51 medicines everywhere in the world but
1:09:52 particularly in the Amazon rainforest.
1:09:54 This is this is where you you see it
1:09:56 most strongly and DMT the active
1:09:58 ingredient of awaska is very fast acting
1:10:01 in the way that it's normally consumed.
1:10:03 Okay. It's normally vaped or smoked. Uh
1:10:07 it produces a 10-minute journey
1:10:10 literally to the other side of reality.
1:10:12 Uh and there's not much you can do about
1:10:14 it once you're in there. But then you're
1:10:17 out again.
1:10:18 Iaska
1:10:20 is a very clever technology. The Iaska
1:10:22 brew contains DMT.
1:10:25 DMT is not orally active. So you can
1:10:28 drink a tea made of with loads of DMT in
1:10:31 it and it's not going to do anything to
1:10:32 you because there's an enzyme in the gut
1:10:34 that destroys it.
1:10:37 >> The iawaska vine contains a chemical
1:10:40 that shuts that enzyme down and allows
1:10:43 the DMT to be absorbed orally producing
1:10:45 an experience that can last for hours
1:10:47 that can be physically very
1:10:48 uncomfortable. Um what they're doing at
1:10:51 Imperial College is they're giving them
1:10:53 DMT by intravenous infusion
1:10:57 >> using basically anesthesia technology to
1:11:00 constantly top up the dose to keep the
1:11:02 individual in the peak state and unlike
1:11:04 other psychedelics there's no tolerance
1:11:06 with DMT so you can keep on dosing
1:11:09 people
1:11:10 >> when you you've taken OAS 80 times
1:11:13 >> something like that something like that
1:11:15 um it's not just it's important to be
1:11:19 clear about a number of things.
1:11:22 First of all, all psychedelics are
1:11:26 extremely serious matters. They are not
1:11:28 to be taken trivially. They are
1:11:30 extremely serious. With uh
1:11:33 experienced use of Iawaska, one of the
1:11:35 very common reports is this moral
1:11:38 dimension that you are presented with
1:11:41 your own life, with what you've done
1:11:43 with your own life, with the pain that
1:11:45 you may have caused to others. And
1:11:47 suddenly that pain that you caused to
1:11:49 another person which you dismissed as
1:11:51 they just deserved that they just
1:11:52 deserve those words. You suddenly get it
1:11:54 from their point of view. You feel the
1:11:56 agony that your words caused that person
1:11:59 and you and you find yourself did I do
1:12:02 that? Did I say that? You suddenly see
1:12:06 what you are.
1:12:08 You can't go back into your own past and
1:12:11 change negative and useless and
1:12:12 pointless things that you did. You can't
1:12:14 do that. but you can avoid repeating
1:12:17 them in the future. And it's that
1:12:19 teaching of a moral lesson uh that I
1:12:22 find most valuable in Iawaska. It's
1:12:24 helped me to come to terms with my
1:12:26 tendency to swift anger. I'm I'm very
1:12:29 aware that that's a problem I have and
1:12:31 it's something I need to do something
1:12:33 about. And I I helped me with that. I'
1:12:35 I've become gentler and and softer. Not
1:12:38 gentle enough, maybe. It's a journey.
1:12:40 It's not a it's not an overnight
1:12:41 transformation. Not a magic pill. Uh the
1:12:44 main work with Iawaska comes after the
1:12:47 medicine. The main work comes with what
1:12:49 you do with the experience, how you
1:12:50 integrate it into your life. That's
1:12:52 where the work begins. People say, "Oh,
1:12:53 it's so easy to take a a brew." Well,
1:12:57 it's not actually not that easy because
1:12:58 you're going to vomit and have diarrhea,
1:12:59 but but easy. Um but that's where the
1:13:03 work begins, not where it ends.
1:13:04 >> And that emotion is that does that stem
1:13:06 back to your relationship with your
1:13:07 parents? Because I was reading about
1:13:09 your early your early years.
1:13:11 Look, we're all frail human beings.
1:13:13 We're all messed about in lots of ways.
1:13:15 We all have we all have issues in our
1:13:17 lives. Um,
1:13:18 >> you said regret.
1:13:20 >> Regret. Yes, I I do regret saying
1:13:22 hurtful and unkind things to a number of
1:13:25 people uh over the years. I do I do
1:13:27 regret that very much. I do regret very
1:13:30 much that I wasn't
1:13:33 I wasn't mature enough to realize why my
1:13:36 parents were so difficult. Uh that I
1:13:38 never really forgave them for that. I
1:13:40 never really forgave them for the
1:13:43 stranges of my childhood and and uh the
1:13:47 various things that that that that
1:13:49 happened. I never really saw it from
1:13:50 their point of view. My mother lost
1:13:51 three children aside from me. I'm an
1:13:53 only child, but her first child was
1:13:55 carried to term before me and born dead.
1:13:58 Then I was born. I lived and then the
1:14:00 next two both died at the age of a year.
1:14:02 Well, I know now as a father, I know I
1:14:05 know what what quite a catastrophe that
1:14:08 is for a person for a for a mother to to
1:14:10 lose three children like that.
1:14:12 >> You said weird childhood.
1:14:15 >> Yeah. So, this is me. This is little
1:14:19 Graeme here with my mother and my
1:14:21 father. I was It was 1954
1:14:24 that we landed in India. My father was a
1:14:27 s consultant surgeon and so he went as a
1:14:29 missionary surgeon to India to a place
1:14:32 called the Christian medical college in
1:14:33 velour in south India. Um and we lived
1:14:36 in a tin hut but he was following his
1:14:38 faith. He was doing what was what was
1:14:40 right for him. He was giving his skills
1:14:42 to help to help people. I I I realize
1:14:44 that now and a lot of resentment I have
1:14:46 towards him I probably you know
1:14:49 shouldn't have. Um he was an odd guy. He
1:14:52 was very eccentric. He used to take me
1:14:54 in to watch dissections. Um the there
1:14:58 were still hangings in India at that
1:15:00 time and he would dissect the prisoners
1:15:02 after the hangings. He had me in there
1:15:03 watching it. Um he took me later on.
1:15:06 >> What age?
1:15:07 >> Uh uh five.
1:15:09 >> You were watching bodies being cut up at
1:15:11 five.
1:15:11 >> I was. Yeah. Absolutely very strange.
1:15:13 See it was presented to me as completely
1:15:15 normal. Um but but it was it it was
1:15:18 strange. Fundamentally he was a good man
1:15:20 I believe.
1:15:22 But I think allowing a 4 to 5year-old
1:15:25 child be to see those things is deeply
1:15:29 traumatic in a way that you probably
1:15:31 don't recognize until later.
1:15:33 >> I I agree. It's it's come home to me
1:15:35 more and more as the years have gone by
1:15:38 that what happened to me in those years
1:15:39 in India
1:15:41 scarred me deeply. It wasn't just the
1:15:44 operating theaters and the dissections,
1:15:47 the dissections. It was the gloom and
1:15:50 the misery and the despair that settled
1:15:54 over my family at that time and I don't
1:15:56 think I ever really recovered from that.
1:15:57 >> Did you have nightmares?
1:15:59 >> Yeah.
1:15:59 >> And what what were those nightmares?
1:16:02 >> Um, usually nightmares of loss. Usually
1:16:06 nightmares of
1:16:08 suddenly I'm alone. I'm in a I'm in a
1:16:11 I'm completely isolated, lost, alone.
1:16:15 The reason I ask these questions is
1:16:17 there's only ever been one other guest
1:16:20 who I sat here with a couple of years
1:16:22 ago
1:16:23 >> who I believe's dad was a surgeon.
1:16:26 >> Mhm.
1:16:26 >> And his dad brought him in to watch
1:16:29 operations and dissections when he was
1:16:31 young.
1:16:32 >> Yeah.
1:16:32 >> And it scarred him in a way that he
1:16:35 didn't realize until later. Yeah.
1:16:37 >> And he told me about the nightmares of
1:16:39 waking up in the night and seeing those
1:16:40 bodies of those people around his bed on
1:16:43 a predictable basis and told me he
1:16:45 actually um coached Michael Jordan
1:16:48 >> and then um Kobe before Kobe Bryant um
1:16:53 passed away and he told me still as an
1:16:55 adult those bodies join him at night
1:16:57 time. So he'll wake up at nighttime and
1:16:59 he'll see them around
1:17:00 >> around his bed. So
1:17:01 >> well thank you universe. That didn't
1:17:03 happen to me. I I I do not have I don't
1:17:06 remember having gruesome nightmares. I
1:17:09 remember a feeling of loneliness and
1:17:11 abandonment. That's what I remember.
1:17:14 >> Loneliness and abandonment.
1:17:15 >> Mhm. I've always felt that way. I was
1:17:18 always an outsider at school. Uh
1:17:21 everywhere I've been all my life. That's
1:17:24 what I'm for. I'm here to be an
1:17:26 outsider. I've come to that conclusion.
1:17:28 And and uh I need to do that. Well, I
1:17:32 need to provide an alternative point of
1:17:34 view on the past.
1:17:35 >> There's a real cost to being an
1:17:36 outsider.
1:17:36 >> Oh, yeah. But there are also some
1:17:38 benefits. You know, we are what we are.
1:17:40 And and for me, I was always strange. I
1:17:43 had this childhood in in in India. I
1:17:46 didn't fit into the British school
1:17:47 system. I was a total failure at school.
1:17:51 I could not connect. I could not connect
1:17:54 with any of it. It seemed I just didn't
1:17:55 get it. What was this about? And and and
1:17:57 the cruelty, the viciousness. My dad
1:18:00 went to a boarding school and had a good
1:18:02 experience. So he sent me to a boarding
1:18:03 school in Durham in the north of
1:18:05 England. It was the crulest place,
1:18:08 beatings going on. I I was repeatedly
1:18:11 beaten about the bare buttocks by a
1:18:13 sadistic headmaster with a cane. I
1:18:16 couldn't fit in with the other kids at
1:18:17 school. And uh I don't feel victimized
1:18:20 for being an outsider. I feel I feel
1:18:21 it's a privilege. I feel I've been given
1:18:23 I've been given an opportunity to take a
1:18:26 different view of things as a result of
1:18:28 being an outsider.
1:18:30 >> Are there words unsaid here with these
1:18:32 two people in your life?
1:18:33 >> Yes, there are there are so many words
1:18:34 unsaid. I'd like to go back to my mom
1:18:37 and say,
1:18:39 you know, I understand why you were so
1:18:41 obsessed with keeping me alive and
1:18:42 making sure that I did something with my
1:18:44 life. And I'd like to say to my dad,
1:18:46 look, you you were pretty crazy, but you
1:18:48 you did at least inspire me to be
1:18:50 eccentric.
1:18:52 It's a funny thing getting older. I'm
1:18:54 75, 76 in August. One of the things it
1:18:58 does is it you realize how collapsed
1:19:01 life actually is. I remember being a
1:19:03 teenager and I remember being a young
1:19:05 man and and I remember being
1:19:06 middle-aged. And the feeling is you're
1:19:09 immortal. It's going to go on forever.
1:19:10 Everything's going to go on forever. And
1:19:12 it's long. It's long. Lots of time to do
1:19:15 the things you want to do. I have a
1:19:17 message. No, it's not long. There is not
1:19:20 lots of time. If there's things you want
1:19:22 to do with your life, start now. Start
1:19:24 right away. Don't wait. Otherwise,
1:19:26 you'll not have the opportunity. Life is
1:19:28 very short. It's a beautiful, beautiful
1:19:31 gift that the universe has given to us.
1:19:34 We are responsible for returning that
1:19:36 gift by as far as possible within the
1:19:39 circumstances that the universe has
1:19:40 given us living a full life and
1:19:42 contributing something worthwhile to
1:19:45 that life. Not being a robot, not being
1:19:49 commanded what to do, not We we need to
1:19:51 learn to think for ourselves. This is
1:19:53 something that is so easily forgotten.
1:19:57 It's a miracle that you and I are
1:20:00 sitting here at all that I'm here, that
1:20:01 you're here, that we're here together.
1:20:02 It's absolute miracle. It's a result of
1:20:05 billions and billions of years of
1:20:06 processes in the universe which had
1:20:09 nothing to do with us randomly bring us
1:20:11 together at this at this point. It's
1:20:13 it's really quite a miraculous
1:20:14 situation. To be alive, to be born at
1:20:16 all is a miracle. Um I think it was
1:20:19 Voltater who talking about reincarnation
1:20:22 uh who said um it's no more
1:20:24 extraordinary to be born twice than to
1:20:27 be born once. Uh and I think there's a
1:20:29 point in that.
1:20:30 >> Are you religious? You believe in a god
1:20:31 or
1:20:31 >> I would say that I am um that I pay
1:20:35 attention close attention to what I
1:20:38 would regard as the spiritual
1:20:39 non-physical side of life. Um but I do
1:20:42 not belong to any organized religion.
1:20:44 One of the things I don't like about
1:20:45 organized religion is that your
1:20:47 relationship to the divine, whatever you
1:20:49 call the divine spirit world, whatever
1:20:51 you want to call it, your relationship
1:20:52 is mediated in some way. Some priest or
1:20:57 rabbi or müller teaches you how to
1:21:00 mediate that relationship. And I I think
1:21:02 what's important in for me anyway in in
1:21:05 the spiritual inquiry is a direct
1:21:06 relationship, a direct experience.
1:21:08 Rather than being taught something, I
1:21:10 want to experience it for myself. And
1:21:13 that's why I found Iawaska very very
1:21:15 valuable. Um because it has enabled me
1:21:17 to experience something that is
1:21:19 absolutely impossible to experience in
1:21:21 normal everyday life. We're so plugged
1:21:24 in. We're so plugged in to the physical
1:21:26 world and we have to be we've got to be
1:21:28 we got to obey the laws of physics. We
1:21:30 got to deal with the economics of our
1:21:31 circumstances. You know, we have to make
1:21:33 our way through life. All of those
1:21:34 things we've got to do. Um, but
1:21:39 if they become our total focus, we
1:21:42 become shut off from everything and
1:21:45 anything else that may exist. And what
1:21:47 the big psychedelics can do if they're
1:21:50 taken in the right circumstances with
1:21:52 the right advice
1:21:54 with sincere intention, what they can do
1:21:56 is get you out of your own way and allow
1:21:59 you to connect to that wider realm that
1:22:01 normally you cannot connect to. And yes,
1:22:03 I do believe that a wider realm exists.
1:22:06 uh just in the same way that uh you you
1:22:09 know before the invention of the
1:22:10 microscope we had no idea that there
1:22:13 were bacteria I think I'm right about
1:22:14 that we start seeing these tiny little
1:22:16 things swimming around gosh major
1:22:18 discovery well they were always there we
1:22:20 just didn't have the kit to see them and
1:22:22 I'm suggesting that what psychedelics
1:22:24 can be and certainly what they used as
1:22:25 shamans by for is a technology a device
1:22:30 uh for getting you out of your own way
1:22:32 and allowing you to connect with other
1:22:34 levels of reality that in daily life it
1:22:36 doesn't serve you to be connected with.
1:22:40 >> The interesting thing about DMT in
1:22:42 particular is when you speak to people
1:22:44 who have done DMT, you know, I spent
1:22:45 about a year working in a quite a big
1:22:47 psychedelics company just to I got
1:22:49 really fascinated. I'd left my company.
1:22:51 I didn't have anything to do with my
1:22:52 time. So I started this podcast and I
1:22:54 also uh on YouTube and I also started
1:22:57 working at a psychedelics business cuz I
1:22:59 found the studies on mental health and
1:23:01 psychedelics really interesting. So I
1:23:02 have quite a deep understanding I guess
1:23:04 higher than average of IV gain and Iaska
1:23:07 and DMT and my partner um is very very
1:23:10 spiritual and has done all these things
1:23:11 as well. So
1:23:13 >> one of the fascinating things is how
1:23:14 similar people's experiences are on
1:23:16 something like DMT. the funnily enough
1:23:19 your description of these creatures
1:23:21 saying you're you belong to us now is
1:23:25 almost verbatim what what one of my
1:23:28 friends described two weeks ago
1:23:30 >> that they were teleported into this like
1:23:32 4K realm where these creatures that are
1:23:35 like slightly animal in their anatomical
1:23:38 structure maybe slightly a little bit
1:23:39 human as well
1:23:40 >> basically was like had
1:23:43 >> had taken hold of him
1:23:45 >> and they were very curious and
1:23:46 inspecting him very colorful realm and
1:23:48 then they kind of sent him back or at
1:23:49 least you know after the and and it does
1:23:52 make one wonder. I think one of my
1:23:53 conclusions was if if inhaling a small
1:23:55 chemical can completely take me to
1:23:58 another place
1:24:00 >> then and and if you from a reasoning
1:24:02 perspective it's just a it was an in one
1:24:04 inhale of a chemical then it goes to say
1:24:08 that my current perception of reality
1:24:11 >> is just is as fragile as an inhale of a
1:24:15 chemical. Like me thinking that I'm here
1:24:17 with you now
1:24:18 >> is as fragile as inhaling
1:24:21 >> one chemical. Yeah.
1:24:22 >> So to think that this is base reality
1:24:25 when the difference between this and
1:24:26 being with some grasshopper people
1:24:28 >> in 4K
1:24:29 >> Exactly.
1:24:30 >> is literally an ale. It just that for me
1:24:33 I was like, "Oh, wow." Okay.
1:24:34 >> It's an extraordinary realization when
1:24:37 that comes and it causes us to question
1:24:38 the nature of reality itself. And this
1:24:41 is um this is what's really important
1:24:44 about these medicines. First and
1:24:46 foremost, you're right. the these um
1:24:48 psychedelic medicines are proving
1:24:50 incredibly effective as therapeutic
1:24:52 tools and that's great. I I I really I
1:24:55 think that's incredibly valuable. But
1:24:57 there's another level to go which is to
1:24:59 the inquiry into the nature of reality
1:25:02 and the inquiry into what consciousness
1:25:04 is. These medicines are very effective
1:25:07 means to conduct that inquiry. And
1:25:09 that's why I applaud what they're doing
1:25:11 at Imperial College in London. They're
1:25:13 also going to be doing trials at the
1:25:15 University of California, San Diego. Um
1:25:19 they're going to be doing trials in
1:25:20 Costa Rica. Uh a whole range of places
1:25:23 now are looking into this because it's
1:25:24 really interesting people coming back
1:25:26 and reporting the same experience when
1:25:28 they haven't compared notes yet.
1:25:30 >> How do we explain that? Because it's in
1:25:32 a vision
1:25:34 >> and people say that at the moment the
1:25:36 default mode is to dismiss it and say
1:25:38 that's just rubbish. Don't waste time on
1:25:40 it. Our preconceptions about the nature
1:25:43 of reality should not limit our inquiry
1:25:47 into the nature of reality. And at the
1:25:49 moment still unfortunately there are
1:25:52 preconceptions about the nature of
1:25:53 reality which is that it's materialbased
1:25:56 that there's nothing else to it really.
1:25:58 Everything is reduced to matter. Even
1:26:00 consciousness is reduced to matter. It's
1:26:03 reduced to the physical matter of the
1:26:05 brain. We don't know that for sure. We
1:26:07 don't know what's going on.
1:26:09 consciousness is absolutely not
1:26:10 understood. And so when we have
1:26:12 mysteries like people who are injected a
1:26:15 small dose of a chemical like DMT and go
1:26:17 off into a completely other reality,
1:26:20 that's really interesting. And it's it's
1:26:22 it's it's at least as interesting, if
1:26:25 not more interesting than exploring
1:26:27 other planets right now. I think we need
1:26:29 to I think we need to explore ourselves
1:26:31 first. We need to We're not in shape as
1:26:35 a species to start exploring the
1:26:37 universe. We don't want to export our
1:26:39 toxicity to other parts of the universe
1:26:42 until we've overcome it, until we've
1:26:44 grown up as a species, which we haven't
1:26:46 done yet. We need to know ourselves.
1:26:48 Psychedelics are one way to do that. Not
1:26:51 used irresponsibly, but used responsibly
1:26:54 in a structured, careful, thoughtful
1:26:56 way. They can be very helpful in knowing
1:27:00 ourselves. That's the journey we need to
1:27:02 do first. Go to Mars by all means, you
1:27:05 know, go to the moon. we go even
1:27:07 further, but do this first. Know who you
1:27:09 are first before you start doing those
1:27:12 bigger and wider investigations. Get all
1:27:14 that sorted out because we're hardly
1:27:16 sorted out anything on this planet and
1:27:18 we're talking about exploring other
1:27:19 planets. Well, I'm all in favor of
1:27:21 exploring other planets, but I'd like to
1:27:23 sort out things on this planet first.
1:27:25 That's where the resources should be
1:27:27 going. And we should stop kidding
1:27:28 ourselves that we can just escape this
1:27:30 planet and make a complete hole of
1:27:33 it, leave it, and go and live somewhere
1:27:34 else. No, we can fix this. We are
1:27:37 capable of fixing this. We're capable of
1:27:39 fixing everything. Human beings have
1:27:41 enormous potential. We're just using a
1:27:44 fraction of 1% of it at the moment.
1:27:47 >> The question I, you know, I mean, the
1:27:49 obvious question that comes to mind is
1:27:50 how I see, you know, maybe I don't know,
1:27:53 maybe some kind of leader comes along.
1:27:55 >> Could be. Um, I think we need to need to
1:27:59 move past leaders.
1:28:00 >> I just don't know how else humans would
1:28:01 change without some kind of leadership.
1:28:03 It's very difficult to see. I agree with
1:28:05 you. It's very it's very difficult to
1:28:06 see how it happens one person at a time
1:28:09 um slowly through through word of mouth,
1:28:12 through experience. But look, everything
1:28:14 in the Iawaska garden is not all flowers
1:28:17 either. There's a lot of very wrong
1:28:19 behavior going on there. People are
1:28:20 exploiting that medicine. Basically,
1:28:22 drug dealers are exploiting that
1:28:24 medicine and offering it irresponsibly
1:28:26 to people in groups of a hundred or even
1:28:29 more. that that that's that's actually
1:28:31 really really stupid to do that. I Iaska
1:28:35 is an intimate experience and it needs
1:28:36 to be done in a very small group, not a
1:28:39 very large group.
1:28:41 So it's not it's not all roses. I'm not
1:28:44 you know I'm not trying to paint these
1:28:45 medicines in a in in a false light. They
1:28:48 have their downsides. They have their
1:28:50 problems. They are extremely serious. We
1:28:52 should always research and investigate
1:28:54 before any experience with psychedelics,
1:28:57 but they have a part to play and it's an
1:29:00 important part. And thank God we're
1:29:01 seeing its effects. Psilocybin effect on
1:29:04 long-term depression, very important.
1:29:06 Post-traumatic stress disorder, very
1:29:09 important. These therapeutic
1:29:11 breakthroughs hopefully will open the
1:29:13 door to further inquiries into the kind
1:29:17 of work that's being done at Imperial
1:29:19 College. What does this really tell us
1:29:20 about the mystery of consciousness? What
1:29:23 does this really tell us about what we
1:29:24 think is real?
1:29:26 >> If you're thinking about starting a
1:29:27 business, one of the first decisions
1:29:28 you'll have to make is actually one of
1:29:30 the most important, which is where do
1:29:32 you build that business? Our product
1:29:34 team who manages everything we do from
1:29:35 our conversation cards to our diaries
1:29:37 has always used our sponsor Shopify.
1:29:40 There are a few reasons for this, but
1:29:42 one of the big ones is that when you're
1:29:44 running a business, you really need your
1:29:46 own store and your own customer data.
1:29:48 And Shopify gives you exactly that. You
1:29:50 aren't renting space from someone else's
1:29:52 platform, hoping the rules don't
1:29:53 suddenly change. And you avoid the
1:29:55 classic founder challenges that
1:29:56 inevitably come, like sorting out
1:29:58 payments and logistics and storefronts,
1:30:00 because it's already built into Shopify.
1:30:02 Those early days are messy enough
1:30:03 without the infrastructure challenge to
1:30:06 create extra problems for you. And
1:30:07 Shopify's distribution piece is
1:30:09 underrated, too, because your products
1:30:11 automatically get in front of people on
1:30:13 Google, Tik Tok, YouTube, ChatGBT, which
1:30:15 again isn't something you have to figure
1:30:17 out yourself. It's just already built
1:30:18 into their platform. If you are serious
1:30:20 about starting your own thing, start
1:30:22 your free trial at shopify.com/bartlet.
1:30:27 >> Through your journey through um ancient
1:30:29 civilizations, what have you come to
1:30:31 learn about what this consciousness
1:30:33 thing is, if anything at all, or at
1:30:34 least what people believed.
1:30:35 >> Yeah.
1:30:36 >> Um and how those mythologies were
1:30:38 similar.
1:30:38 >> Yes. I've partly I've partly come to
1:30:40 this through the ancient texts. There's
1:30:43 a very specific uh scene in a number of
1:30:48 the ancient Egyptianerary texts. It's
1:30:50 called the judgment scene. And what you
1:30:53 see is you see the deceased entering
1:30:55 into a hall into a room at the end of
1:30:57 which sits the god Osiris enthroned.
1:31:01 And uh the deceased is led into the hall
1:31:04 by the goddess Mart. She's recognized by
1:31:07 a feather that she wears in her
1:31:08 headdress. She's the goddess of truth,
1:31:10 justice, and cosmic harmony.
1:31:14 He enters the hall. There's a scale in
1:31:18 the hall. In one pan of the scale is an
1:31:22 object that represents his heart,
1:31:25 oblique, his soul. Heart and soul were
1:31:27 the same thing for the Egyptians in that
1:31:29 sense. And in the other pan is the
1:31:32 feather of mart, the feather of truth,
1:31:35 harmony, and cosmic justice.
1:31:38 You do not want your heart to outweigh
1:31:40 the feather at that moment.
1:31:43 You want at the very least to be in
1:31:46 balance.
1:31:48 And in order to be in balance then comes
1:31:50 into question the whole way that you've
1:31:52 lived your life. Up on the wall of the
1:31:55 hall there are 42 little figures.
1:31:57 They're called the 42 negative
1:31:59 assessors. Each one of them is going to
1:32:00 ask you a question. Did you steal? Did
1:32:04 you kill? Actually, the ten commandments
1:32:05 are all in there and a lot more as well.
1:32:08 Ideally, you should be able to answer no
1:32:11 to all of those questions, but the
1:32:12 ancient Egyptians always understood how
1:32:15 frail human beings are and that we can
1:32:17 always make mistakes. The question is,
1:32:19 what do we do when we make a mistake? Do
1:32:21 we learn from it or do we keep on
1:32:22 repeating it? And what I read into that
1:32:25 is you were given, you deceased, you
1:32:28 were given an incredible opportunity. We
1:32:31 allowed you to be born in a human body.
1:32:34 You could have a range of experiences
1:32:36 that no other physical form on your
1:32:38 planet could have. You you you had this
1:32:40 huge brain. You had this enormous
1:32:42 capacity. We gave it this to you. What
1:32:45 did you do with it?
1:32:48 Did you use it well or did you squander
1:32:50 it and waste it? And at that moment,
1:32:52 you'd better be there with some answers
1:32:54 about how you used it well. So, as I
1:32:56 come towards the end of my life, I look
1:32:59 very carefully at my life. I and um I
1:33:03 try to undo wrongs that I have done in
1:33:05 the past if I can and I try to make sure
1:33:07 I don't do any more in the future. I
1:33:09 want to be a nurturing and positive and
1:33:12 useful person to the people around me.
1:33:16 >> The the health situation you've gone
1:33:17 through has clearly made you quite
1:33:19 introspective, probably more so than you
1:33:20 you might have been 10 years ago, I'm
1:33:22 guessing.
1:33:22 >> Oh, yeah. AB: Absolutely. I was still
1:33:24 immortal 10 years ago. M
1:33:27 >> listen each and every one of us, every
1:33:30 single human being on this planet could
1:33:32 die in the next minute. Life is that
1:33:35 fragile. It's that sudden. You can never
1:33:37 predict you you how long you're going to
1:33:40 live. But what something like this does,
1:33:42 it focuses the mind and it does make me
1:33:45 wish more and more that I can leave this
1:33:48 life with as few regrets as possible and
1:33:52 that I can feel that I played a useful
1:33:55 and positive role in the life of others
1:33:58 and that I even played in some way a
1:34:03 useful and positive role in the life of
1:34:06 the species to which I belong. Are you
1:34:09 happy?
1:34:11 >> I am very happy
1:34:14 in a lot of ways. I'm blessed to have
1:34:18 lived the life I've lived, to have
1:34:21 traveled the world, to have the
1:34:23 adventures that I have had. I am blessed
1:34:26 with a beautiful and wonderful wife and
1:34:28 companion. My wife Samtha
1:34:30 >> got this wonderful picture of her.
1:34:31 >> Yeah.
1:34:32 >> Glows.
1:34:32 >> That's me and Samantha. We met when we
1:34:35 were about 40 years old. And um I don't
1:34:39 think we've been apart more than 4 days
1:34:42 in the entire 30 plus years uh since
1:34:45 then.
1:34:46 >> Wow.
1:34:46 >> Uh we do everything together. We travel
1:34:48 together. Samantha's a photographer.
1:34:49 Brilliant photographer. And and and uh I
1:34:52 do not have a great visual eye. So we
1:34:54 work together. I do the words. Sa does
1:34:55 the pictures. We have the adventures
1:34:57 together. We did the scuba diving
1:34:58 together. Samantha nearly lost her life
1:35:01 twice in intense currents scuba diving.
1:35:05 She's brave. She's an adventurer.
1:35:07 She's a wonderful mother. This is so
1:35:10 important. Samantha and I have six
1:35:12 children between us. Samantha brought
1:35:14 two from her previous marriage. I
1:35:16 brought two from my first marriage and
1:35:17 two from my second marriage. So, six
1:35:20 children from three broken marriages is
1:35:22 a potential disaster. Santa brought them
1:35:25 all together into a group of loving,
1:35:28 deeply committed siblings who care for
1:35:30 one another, who are constantly in each
1:35:32 other's lives, who are there to support
1:35:34 one another. SA did that by just being a
1:35:37 brilliant, loving person. So, I'm very
1:35:40 happy to have such a great partner who's
1:35:44 stood by me through thick and thin and
1:35:46 who's brought out these wonderful
1:35:49 characters in in in our children and now
1:35:51 our grandchildren. You know, nine
1:35:52 grandchildren, six grandkids, all of
1:35:55 it's down to Santa. It's remarkable that
1:35:56 through all the wonders of human history
1:35:58 and all the things we talked about that
1:36:00 love like this kind of romantic love is
1:36:05 so central, so important, so central to
1:36:07 our happiness. I just thought, oh, it's
1:36:09 it's just a wonderful reminder of um how
1:36:11 easy it is to get caught up in the
1:36:13 material and and all the toxic whereas,
1:36:16 you know, so much of it comes from just
1:36:19 the simplicity of falling in love with
1:36:20 someone.
1:36:20 >> Love is what it's all about. And and
1:36:22 love is love is giving. It's giving
1:36:25 yourself to somebody else. It's putting
1:36:28 the other person. Sorry, I'm going to
1:36:30 end up crying. This This is what my wife
1:36:32 does all the time with everybody.
1:36:37 She puts other people first and uh
1:36:41 others benefit enormously from that. I'm
1:36:43 very fortunate. I think I think if I
1:36:47 hadn't met Samantha when I did and we
1:36:50 hadn't formed this joint life, I think I
1:36:55 would have made nothing of my life.
1:36:56 Nothing at all really.
1:36:58 >> I think it would have just gone down the
1:36:59 tubes. I needed a loving steering hand
1:37:02 at that point. Anyway, very lucky. I I I
1:37:05 am happy. There are things that make me
1:37:06 unhappy, of course, just like every
1:37:08 every every other human being. I I don't
1:37:10 understand why those who are bitterly
1:37:13 opposed to my work want to try and
1:37:16 present me as some kind of fraud or
1:37:17 grifter. But I suppose it's a easy way
1:37:20 to lazily dismiss somebody else. Uh,
1:37:22 another thing that has been used is
1:37:26 because I've considered the possibility
1:37:27 of a lost civilization having an
1:37:30 influence on other known historical
1:37:33 civilization. Uh I've been accused of
1:37:35 racism as well that I've been I've been
1:37:37 accused of taking away the authenticity
1:37:40 of indigenous achievements. Um and and
1:37:43 that again has been without without any
1:37:46 receipts. It's not been it's just thrown
1:37:48 out there as an accusation. Now for me
1:37:51 with with a multithnic family uh that
1:37:55 racism abuse that has been thrown at me
1:37:57 constantly uh is extremely hurtful and
1:38:00 extremely painful. It's one of the few
1:38:02 things that have been thrown at me that
1:38:04 I actually cannot forgive. It's
1:38:07 unforgivable to use that lazy
1:38:11 easy dismissal
1:38:14 in a society where a lot of people don't
1:38:15 read anymore. I mean, pretty much
1:38:17 guarantee people who hear that on the
1:38:19 internet, they're not going to go and
1:38:20 read the books and actually find out
1:38:21 what I said. They're just going to take
1:38:23 it as face value. So, that does hurt and
1:38:25 it does make me sad. But generally, I'm
1:38:27 blessed. I'm lucky. I've lived a
1:38:30 fantastic privileged life. I've explored
1:38:33 the world. I'm surrounded by love and
1:38:36 onwards and upwards as far as I'm
1:38:38 concerned.
1:38:39 >> Well, you know, Graeme, I think at the
1:38:41 end of the day, the thing that endures
1:38:43 is
1:38:44 >> the impact, the curiosity that you've
1:38:46 you've provoked in people, allowed them
1:38:48 to wander beyond the narrowness of our
1:38:50 lives, which is quite miserable.
1:38:52 >> A narrow life is feels quite like a
1:38:53 miserable life where you can't be
1:38:54 open-minded and explore. And and that's
1:38:56 why I love these conversations. It's not
1:38:58 to say that I that I always accept when
1:39:00 I have these kind of conversations
1:39:01 everything to be 100% true, but the net
1:39:03 benefit for me is just expanding my mind
1:39:06 >> to possibility.
1:39:07 >> Absolutely.
1:39:08 >> And like please don't rob me of the
1:39:09 opportunity to expand my mind to
1:39:11 possibility. What would my life become
1:39:13 without possibility or hope or these
1:39:16 things? And and actually when I look at
1:39:18 >> graphs like this that show how our
1:39:20 beliefs uh and scientific understanding
1:39:22 has changed even in recent times as as
1:39:24 recent as 2017 on this particular graph.
1:39:27 I go well I have some arrogance to
1:39:29 assume that I know it all today.
1:39:31 >> Totally. Things things are constantly
1:39:33 changing. You know every turn of the
1:39:35 spade in an archaeological dig can
1:39:38 change the whole story.
1:39:39 >> Change the whole story. This is not
1:39:41 limited to archaeology. This is found in
1:39:43 all fields where there are specialists
1:39:45 that they they tend to get locked into a
1:39:48 particular reference frame and actually
1:39:50 defend it in a territorial way. It
1:39:52 becomes like a war and they they they
1:39:55 feel absolutely responsible to defend
1:39:57 that territory against all comers and
1:39:59 will use any dirty tricks that are
1:40:01 needed to be used in order to defeat the
1:40:03 enemy. So you asked me a straightforward
1:40:05 question. Am I happy? Yes, I am happy.
1:40:08 And I honestly answered you that there
1:40:09 are certain things, particularly the
1:40:11 racism assaults on me, that do make me
1:40:14 extremely unhappy.
1:40:15 >> What else do I need to know about the
1:40:18 the possibility of an ancient
1:40:19 civilization that might inform how I
1:40:22 think about myself, my life, and I guess
1:40:25 also our future. What I found so
1:40:26 fascinating is especially we're in a
1:40:28 moment of this AI revolution where
1:40:30 you've got these sort of big forces of
1:40:31 you got nuclear weapons over here,
1:40:32 you've now got this advanced
1:40:33 intelligence, there's humanoid robots on
1:40:35 the horizon. And if there was ever a
1:40:37 moment where the word, you know,
1:40:39 existential is being used in a in a way
1:40:42 that is probably appropriate for me, it
1:40:43 feels like now.
1:40:44 >> Yeah, feels like now to me, too. Uh this
1:40:48 is uh no doubt uh our species is poised
1:40:51 on the edge of an abyss right now. Uh
1:40:54 our technology has outgrown our
1:40:56 mentality. Uh and we're not uh we're not
1:41:00 in good shape to deal with the
1:41:02 challenges that lie ahead. I I un
1:41:04 unfortunately the chances of a nuclear
1:41:07 exchange are just higher and higher.
1:41:09 That's just a realistic assessment of
1:41:10 the way the world is with these maniacal
1:41:12 leaders. So what could we learn from the
1:41:14 past? We can I I I believe we can learn
1:41:17 that there's another way to live that we
1:41:18 don't have to do it this way.
1:41:21 >> I I that's that's something I believe.
1:41:24 >> Okay. Believe
1:41:25 >> that's something I don't know.
1:41:26 >> Okay. I guess I'm optimistic that human
1:41:29 beings have made it through
1:41:32 all these centuries, all these thousands
1:41:34 of years, all these hundreds of
1:41:36 thousands of years that we've made it
1:41:38 through. We've made terrible mistakes
1:41:40 and terrible. I mean, look at the Second
1:41:42 World War. God know how many people were
1:41:45 killed there. 20 million Russians alone
1:41:47 if I remember correct. It was just
1:41:48 horrific. Absolute horror. It's only
1:41:52 when I was born in 1950, the Second
1:41:54 World War was only 5 years away. and at
1:41:56 the end of it and it hung over us. You
1:41:58 know, you our our generation were aware
1:42:00 of that, but it seems to me people today
1:42:03 aren't aware of the horror of global war
1:42:05 in the way that they were and and and uh
1:42:08 that adds to the to the danger that we
1:42:11 will emulate ourselves. I think a new
1:42:15 approach to the nature of reality is
1:42:17 really vital. I think we we need to
1:42:19 begin to understand consciousness
1:42:21 better. Uh and what I would wish for the
1:42:24 human species
1:42:27 is that we understand we are actually
1:42:28 all one. Incredibly diverse,
1:42:32 full of creativity and differences, but
1:42:34 but all one. And a mother in the middle
1:42:38 of subsahara and Africa and a mother in
1:42:40 New York City, they love their kids in
1:42:43 exactly the same way. They hope for
1:42:45 their kids in exactly the same way.
1:42:47 There's no difference between them at
1:42:49 all. As long as we're as long as we're
1:42:52 indoctrinated into this notion of
1:42:54 divisive differences, I'm all in favor
1:42:56 of differences between human beings.
1:42:59 That's part of our creativity as our
1:43:01 species, but divisive differences,
1:43:04 that's what's going to kill us off. Uh,
1:43:06 and that's, I think, the message that
1:43:09 comes down from the past. Whether it's a
1:43:11 correct message or not, the message is
1:43:14 we, a former civilization,
1:43:17 made a terrible mistake. and it resulted
1:43:21 in a cataclysm that brought us down. I
1:43:25 think we need to realize that can happen
1:43:26 again. Uh and that we are most likely to
1:43:30 be the cause of that cataclysm
1:43:31 ourselves. Uh there may there may be a
1:43:35 danger of further comet impacts. The
1:43:37 younger drius comet fragments. It's
1:43:39 called the torid meteor stream. The
1:43:42 earth passes through it twice a year in
1:43:45 June and in October, November. Uh there
1:43:48 are hundreds of deadly objects in the
1:43:50 torid meteor stream. It could happen.
1:43:52 But I think a much more likely way that
1:43:54 we're going to bring our civilization
1:43:58 back almost to the stone age is nuclear
1:44:02 war.
1:44:03 We're going to do it to ourselves.
1:44:05 Unless we wake up, unless we become more
1:44:09 conscious of what it is to be a human
1:44:11 being, of the privilege and the gift of
1:44:14 being a human being, and how that
1:44:15 privilege of gift belongs to every human
1:44:17 being, not just to us. But I don't know
1:44:21 how that's going to be done. I I I do
1:44:23 think psychedelics can play a role. I've
1:44:26 said many times and I'll say it again.
1:44:27 If I if I had the power to do so, I
1:44:31 would insist that every world leader has
1:44:33 at least at least a dozen sessions of
1:44:36 Iawaska before they even apply for the
1:44:39 job.
1:44:40 >> Because you believe that would give them
1:44:41 the same feeling of oneness that
1:44:43 >> I think most of them wouldn't apply for
1:44:44 the job at all.
1:44:45 >> Oh, really?
1:44:46 >> And those who did would would probably
1:44:48 do a much better job
1:44:50 >> because they'd understand themselves
1:44:52 better.
1:44:54 Graeme, what is the most important thing
1:44:55 we haven't discussed as it relates to
1:44:58 our past and what it might teach us or,
1:45:01 you know, how it might inform how we
1:45:02 choose to live our lives today? Um, that
1:45:04 we haven't discussed. Look, the most
1:45:07 important thing as far as far as I'm
1:45:08 concerned is independent inquiry. We
1:45:11 need to start thinking for ourselves and
1:45:13 that's true of the past and it's true of
1:45:15 everything else. uh to the to the extent
1:45:18 that I that I do get positive feedback
1:45:20 from young people and I do a lot that
1:45:24 feedback is thank you for being an
1:45:26 example to question everything.
1:45:28 >> Mhm.
1:45:29 >> It happens that what I'm questioning is
1:45:32 the past but that can be a model for
1:45:35 questioning everything. I I feel that
1:45:39 that
1:45:41 very poor journalism
1:45:43 being used to smear my name because I
1:45:47 asked questions and because I asked them
1:45:49 vigorously and because most important of
1:45:52 all I reached a large audience. That's
1:45:55 it really. They won't sneer your name if
1:45:58 you don't reach a large audience. You're
1:45:59 not worth their trouble.
1:46:00 >> I know the feeling.
1:46:02 >> Yeah. But I think but you know for me my
1:46:04 thing has always been that um all it's
1:46:06 done has made me clearer like you know
1:46:08 you have a bigger platform more people
1:46:10 um watching you etc and talking about
1:46:12 you all it's done for me is made me
1:46:14 clearer on my principles and what I
1:46:16 believe and I'm actually really thankful
1:46:18 for that in a weird way. Yeah,
1:46:19 >> because you're forced to, you know, when
1:46:20 you hear so many things said about you
1:46:22 or written about you, whatever, it does
1:46:24 focus one minds on, okay, like who am I
1:46:26 and what matters? What am I where am I
1:46:28 uncompromising in terms of the
1:46:30 conversations I want to have, the way I
1:46:31 want to do it? And that's given me a
1:46:33 huge amount of clarity and one of the
1:46:34 things that I'm really
1:46:36 >> I really want to make sure is that it
1:46:38 doesn't make me um bitter or resentful
1:46:40 in any way.
1:46:41 >> Very important.
1:46:42 >> And you can see how it happens. Yeah, I
1:46:44 can I can absolutely see how it happens
1:46:46 >> because you you have to live with a sort
1:46:47 of um injustice potentially or being
1:46:51 mischaracterized or whatever. So, it's
1:46:53 easy to see how one can slip off into
1:46:54 bitterness and resentment and
1:46:56 >> that's a that's a big part of the work
1:46:58 I'm doing on myself at the moment. I I'm
1:47:01 confident that I am doing the right
1:47:03 thing with my life. I'm doing no harm to
1:47:05 anyone and I'm putting ideas out there
1:47:07 that are worth thinking about. I'm
1:47:09 confident of that. I have no I have no
1:47:11 doubts about that. And what will you
1:47:13 care about on your on your last day?
1:47:16 >> Most of all, the love of my family.
1:47:20 That's the most important thing to me.
1:47:22 And um I don't know, the feeling that
1:47:28 I did my best. I did the best I could to
1:47:33 carry out the task that uh fell upon me
1:47:36 quite by accident. I didn't I was a
1:47:38 current affairs journalist in the 1980s.
1:47:41 I had no idea I was going to go down
1:47:43 this rabbit hole into the ancient world.
1:47:44 It was a series of accidents that led to
1:47:47 it. But having gone down it, I feel very
1:47:50 very very committed to it.
1:47:52 >> It's interesting because one of the ways
1:47:54 that I um I've always chosen to conduct
1:47:56 my interviews is just to um judge people
1:47:58 as I find them. I remember once upon a
1:47:59 time I had Brian Johnson coming on my
1:48:01 podcast and you know he's quite a he's a
1:48:03 he has some radical beliefs about living
1:48:04 forever etc. He's the longevity guy. And
1:48:07 I remember one of my team members
1:48:08 walking up to me beforehand and saying
1:48:09 before he had arrived and saying, "What
1:48:10 do you think of him?"
1:48:11 >> And I remember saying, "I have no idea.
1:48:12 I've not met him yet."
1:48:13 >> Yeah.
1:48:14 >> And then I sat down with him, had this
1:48:15 interview, and he said this thing to me
1:48:17 at the end of the interview where he
1:48:18 goes, "Thank you." And I go, "What do
1:48:19 you mean?" He goes, "Thank you. This is
1:48:20 the first time I've done an interview in
1:48:21 my life where the interviewer had like
1:48:23 no preconceptions of me."
1:48:24 >> And he goes, "It meant that I was
1:48:25 relaxed and able to be myself and blah
1:48:27 blah blah blah." And I and I say that
1:48:28 because
1:48:30 my opinion of you is someone who is
1:48:33 really curious about about humanity and
1:48:36 has this interesting idea that is really
1:48:38 expansive for one's mind about what
1:48:40 could have happened. And um again, the
1:48:43 net benefit for me of that is just
1:48:46 expanding my mind in a way that makes me
1:48:49 empathetic to other people.
1:48:50 >> Yeah.
1:48:51 >> Makes me feel like me and you aren't
1:48:53 different.
1:48:54 >> Yeah. like I've met you today but we're
1:48:56 probably you know we we we go back a
1:48:58 long way maybe consciously we're the
1:48:59 same but
1:49:00 >> in our history and our lineage we are
1:49:02 >> we are one of the same and um it also
1:49:05 gives me a huge amount of respect for
1:49:09 other living things including my
1:49:11 ancestors
1:49:12 >> in a way that you kind of think of your
1:49:13 ancestors as these like monkeys that
1:49:15 lived in trees potentially
1:49:16 >> but actually hearing some of these
1:49:17 stories makes me go oh my gosh and
1:49:19 actually it gives me a huge sense of
1:49:20 responsibility
1:49:22 >> to leave this planet and this earth in a
1:49:24 way that it's going to be good for, you
1:49:26 know, the future the future kids that
1:49:28 will live 20,000 years from now in the
1:49:30 future and that will probably look at
1:49:31 our um fossil records and wonder.
1:49:33 >> I I think I think those of us who have a
1:49:35 a platform do have a responsibility
1:49:37 >> very very very definitely. I mean, we're
1:49:40 living in this strange new world. This
1:49:42 this world was inconceivable even in the
1:49:44 beginning of the 1990s.
1:49:46 >> This this this world of communication
1:49:48 that we live in now. And there's no
1:49:49 doubt that that um
1:49:52 this is where influence
1:49:54 can be applied. And and
1:49:57 if that influence is
1:50:00 encouraging all that's good in the human
1:50:02 race, then that's really great and it's
1:50:04 a wonderful thing. And if it's
1:50:06 encouraging all that's dark and negative
1:50:07 and cruel and unkind and vicious in the
1:50:09 human race, because that's also out
1:50:11 there on the internet,
1:50:12 >> then it's not so good.
1:50:14 Graeme, we have a um closing tradition
1:50:16 on the show where the last guest leaves
1:50:18 the question for the next not knowing
1:50:19 who they're leaving it for. And the
1:50:20 question left for you is, is there a
1:50:22 danger of us sleepwalking into
1:50:25 worshiping a machine god?
1:50:29 >> You want me to answer that question?
1:50:31 >> Yes, we're already worshiping a machine
1:50:33 god. As I said earlier in our
1:50:34 discussion, uh in the minds of many,
1:50:38 science has already been elevated to
1:50:40 occupy the space that was once occupied
1:50:43 by religions.
1:50:45 That is a belief in a machine
1:50:47 fundamentally that's taking place there.
1:50:50 Science should be seen as a tool, one
1:50:52 amongst many tools that we as human
1:50:55 beings have at our disposal. It should
1:50:57 never be the only tool and it should
1:51:00 never be woripped. I don't ever want to
1:51:02 hear the words, trust the science.
1:51:06 The words for me are investigate the
1:51:09 science. See whether it's right for you
1:51:11 or not. See what else is available in
1:51:14 the in the in the situation. Don't just
1:51:17 routinely without thought, without
1:51:19 question, trust the science. Don't do
1:51:21 that. That's that's betraying science as
1:51:23 well. One of the fundamental ethics of
1:51:26 science is not to trust the science is
1:51:28 to question
1:51:30 and challenge the science. That's what
1:51:32 we should be doing with the science. And
1:51:34 yes, we are in danger of creating a kind
1:51:37 of
1:51:38 multi-dimensional machine which reaches
1:51:41 into all aspects of human consciousness
1:51:43 and and controls us. Yeah.
1:51:46 We got to stop worshiping science.
1:51:48 That's for sure. We got to put it in its
1:51:51 rightful place as an incredibly valuable
1:51:54 tool which which can do great things for
1:51:57 human beings but which can also do
1:51:58 terrible harm and damage.
1:52:00 >> Because when we trust science, there's
1:52:01 something we stop listening to.
1:52:04 >> Well, when you put your trust in
1:52:06 anything, you better have good reason to
1:52:07 put your trust in it. If I if I'm going
1:52:10 to trust another human being with my
1:52:13 life, I I really want to know that I can
1:52:16 trust that person. And I'm not just
1:52:17 going to say, "Oh, you're a doctor, so I
1:52:19 trust you." No, it's not that's not
1:52:21 enough. I want to know more about that
1:52:23 doctor. And uh in in indeed, I have
1:52:26 pursued that just recently. Science is
1:52:29 great. Science is really useful, but
1:52:31 we're not we're not being what we should
1:52:34 be. We're not living up to the potential
1:52:37 that the universe gave us if we just go
1:52:39 around trusting everything all the time.
1:52:42 We're here to ask questions. That's what
1:52:44 we got these enormous brains for. and
1:52:46 this incredible connectivity is to ask
1:52:49 questions. Anybody who says don't ask
1:52:51 questions is doing a great deal of harm.
1:52:54 >> Well, I hope my audience are very
1:52:55 curious. Um, and I think they must be by
1:52:57 now if they're still hanging around uh
1:52:58 on this platform because we've had lots
1:53:00 of very curious conversations and
1:53:02 hopefully expansive. I this acronym DOA
1:53:05 obviously stands for Draio, but also we
1:53:07 think of it as like
1:53:08 >> being for dreamers and open-minded
1:53:10 people, which is the O, and the A being
1:53:12 about expanding awareness and the C
1:53:13 really being about feeling more
1:53:14 connected.
1:53:15 >> Brilliant. like hearing your story and
1:53:16 about your partner and your journey and
1:53:18 your parents all makes me all, you know,
1:53:20 I think it makes us like spiritually
1:53:23 connected in a way that's increasingly
1:53:24 rare.
1:53:25 >> If people want to learn and read more
1:53:27 from you, Graeme, where do they go? I
1:53:29 mean, you've written so many wonderful
1:53:30 books. You've got another one on the
1:53:31 way.
1:53:32 >> I'll link all of these books you've
1:53:33 written and the others that aren't here
1:53:35 below.
1:53:35 >> Okay. Um, very briefly, the the the book
1:53:39 that put me on the map was Fingerprints
1:53:41 of the Gods.
1:53:42 >> Yeah. And that's the book where I really
1:53:44 investigate begin to investigate the
1:53:46 possibility of a lost civilization.
1:53:48 Before that came the sign and the seal
1:53:50 which was which was about Ethiopia's
1:53:53 claim to possess the lost ark of the
1:53:55 covenant. It happened that as a reporter
1:53:57 in the 1980s I spent a lot of time in
1:53:59 Ethiopia and I came across this
1:54:01 tradition which is fundamental to all
1:54:04 religious life in Ethiopia. uh and and
1:54:07 um ended up writing a book about it that
1:54:10 put me on the track of a lost
1:54:11 civilization led to fingerprints of the
1:54:13 gods. Then after fingerprints of the
1:54:16 gods, there's a book that's not here
1:54:17 which is keeper of genesis that I wrote
1:54:19 with Robert Bval underworld. This was
1:54:23 seven years of scuba diving that Sam and
1:54:25 I did all around the world following up
1:54:27 tips from local fishermen, local divers.
1:54:31 They'd seen something interesting,
1:54:32 something that looked man-made at a
1:54:34 depth of 30 m just offshore there and
1:54:37 they would take us and we would find it.
1:54:39 Uh so underworld is about all those
1:54:41 flooded continental shelves. 27 million
1:54:45 square kilmters of continental shelf
1:54:47 were flooded at the end of the ice age.
1:54:49 That's 27 million square kilmters.
1:54:51 That's Europe and China and a bit more
1:54:53 combined. uh were the best real estate
1:54:56 on Earth uh 20,000 years ago and are all
1:54:59 underwater today
1:55:00 >> and and there's signs that there was
1:55:02 life there.
1:55:02 >> Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
1:55:04 >> Civilizations there.
1:55:05 >> Yeah. Well, we found very large
1:55:06 structures underwater. Um so that's
1:55:09 that's uh underworld. Then after
1:55:11 underworld I wrote supernatural which is
1:55:13 that one there which has been reissued
1:55:16 in America under the title visionary.
1:55:19 And that's where I went deep into the
1:55:22 shamanistic medicines, the the iawasa,
1:55:26 psilocybin,
1:55:27 and and and the whole notion that cave
1:55:30 art, the art that we see in the painted
1:55:32 caves is an art of visions, that this is
1:55:37 shamans who had entered deeply altered
1:55:40 states of consciousness. They'd
1:55:41 remembered what they'd seen, and when
1:55:43 they came back to the everyday state of
1:55:45 consciousness, they painted their
1:55:46 visions in caves. is the best
1:55:48 explanation for cave arts and why cave
1:55:50 art is so similar all around the world
1:55:52 and so similar to the visions of Iawaska
1:55:55 shamans to this day.
1:55:56 >> Graham, thank you so much for all that
1:55:58 you do. I won't repeat every all the
1:55:59 reasons why, but you've you've blown my
1:56:01 mind open in a way that's just driven
1:56:02 curiosity. And um I think that's maybe
1:56:05 the start of all inquiry is deep
1:56:06 curiosity. And that's what you've done
1:56:07 for not just myself, but the hundreds of
1:56:09 millions of people that have watched you
1:56:10 over the years um all over the world and
1:56:13 I hope long may it continue and good
1:56:14 luck with your heart operation and
1:56:16 hopefully we'll be back again to
1:56:17 continue this conversation soon.
1:56:18 >> Absolutely. Thank you so much.
1:56:20 Appreciate it. Thank you so much. Really
1:56:21 good to meet you.
1:56:21 >> Thank you so much. That was brilliant.
1:56:22 YouTube have this new crazy algorithm
1:56:24 where they know exactly what video you
1:56:26 would like to watch next based on AI and
1:56:28 all of your viewing behavior. And the
1:56:30 algorithm says that this video is the
1:56:33 perfect video for you. It's different
1:56:35 for everybody looking right now. Check
1:56:37 this video out and I bet you you might
1:56:39 love